Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

BBC demands DRM for HTML5

boingboing.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 213 posts

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#11

Post by nwh »

Drakim wrote: post #6

How exactly would DRM for HTML5 work? Couldn't I just fork Chronimum or Firefox and make the browser save the video content in a file rather than showing it?

It wouldn't. DRM relies on obfuscation, and open source software obviously can't have that. They'll probably write a horribly insecure Silverlight plugin that will be cracked in a matter of minutes.

ED: It looks like they'll have a "plugin" that does authentication with a remote server, and then decodes the frames sent to it. The browser displays them, or the DRM removal software sniffs the keys and decrypts the content anyway.

This is how they think it will work [1], and the full proposal [2]

[1]: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-med...

[2]: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/encrypted-med...

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#12

Post by acdha »

Drakim wrote: post #6

How exactly would DRM for HTML5 work? Couldn't I just fork Chronimum or Firefox and make the browser save the video content in a file rather than showing it?

I think it's more that you'd move the technology out a level - take the same fantasy-ware which is currently in Flash or Silverlight and allow IE or Safari to call it directly. The OSS versions presumably wouldn't get this and would be unable to play such content. Imagine started accepting QuickTime or Windows Media content and passing it directly to the OS framework for decoding & rights control.

I'm in favor of the idea: if we are to have DRM – and there's no sign of the legal sea-change necessary to change that – it might as well be something which doesn't spread a binary plugin with a huge attack surface around much of the web.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#13

Post by gph »

venomsnake wrote: post #9
lukifer wrote: post #5

I hate DRM too, and yet I love watching Netflix streaming. The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc), the business model for online rental vanishes. The fact that DRM is always defeatable through hacks and analog loopholes doesn't matter: it just has to be good enough to deter the vast majority of users. I believe we need comprehensive IP reform across the boa…

Or we can outlaw DRM and put evolutionary pressure on the content providers and emasculate the gatekeepers.

Yes, and let's tar and feather the Tax Collectors!!!

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#14

Post by mtgx »

samarudge wrote: post #3

First you have to understand that not all of the content broadcast on the BBC is created by the BBC. They carry programs made by independent, limited, for-profit studios. They also regularly carry movies. All of which they put up on their iPlayer service. As an example, you can currently watch Madagascar, in full, for free on BBC iPlayer ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00gd77z/Madagascar/ ). While there is an…

But would all browsers and services use the same HTML5 DRM scheme, or would they be incompatible with each other, and then you'd need someone to make a plugin with "all-in-one" HTML5 DRM schemes? Because if they aren't compatible then that defeats the point of doing this in HTML5.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#15

Post by Benferhat »

lukifer wrote: post #5

I hate DRM too, and yet I love watching Netflix streaming. The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc), the business model for online rental vanishes. The fact that DRM is always defeatable through hacks and analog loopholes doesn't matter: it just has to be good enough to deter the vast majority of users. I believe we need comprehensive IP reform across the boa…

> The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc)

It's already trivial for regular users to download pirated data, even if only experts can get around the DRM to copy and release it[0] in the first place.

Case in point: House of Cards. Fully, freely and easily available to Joe The Pirate Next Door Schmoe, now that some nerd (TRIC? BTN? ASAP? Immerse?) has gotten around Netflix's DRM.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warez_scene#Release_procedure

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#16

Post by betterunix »

samarudge wrote: post #3

First you have to understand that not all of the content broadcast on the BBC is created by the BBC. They carry programs made by independent, limited, for-profit studios. They also regularly carry movies. All of which they put up on their iPlayer service. As an example, you can currently watch Madagascar, in full, for free on BBC iPlayer ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00gd77z/Madagascar/ ). While there is an…

"there is no way larger, and independent studios would allow their content uploaded DRM free."

Then I guess they do not get to have it on the BBC website. You know, assuming the BBC sticks to its guns, which they apparently have not.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#17

Post by youngerdryas »

venomsnake wrote: post #9
lukifer wrote: post #5

I hate DRM too, and yet I love watching Netflix streaming. The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc), the business model for online rental vanishes. The fact that DRM is always defeatable through hacks and analog loopholes doesn't matter: it just has to be good enough to deter the vast majority of users. I believe we need comprehensive IP reform across the boa…

Or we can outlaw DRM and put evolutionary pressure on the content providers and emasculate the gatekeepers.

How is outlawing something evolution?

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#18

Post by betterunix »

lukifer wrote: post #5

I hate DRM too, and yet I love watching Netflix streaming. The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc), the business model for online rental vanishes. The fact that DRM is always defeatable through hacks and analog loopholes doesn't matter: it just has to be good enough to deter the vast majority of users. I believe we need comprehensive IP reform across the boa…

"The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc), the business model for online rental vanishes."

Yes, and if it is trivial to send photos without first developing them, the business model for Kodak will vanish! Why, if it were trivial for people to move a carriage from point A to point B, the business model for buggy whip makers might vanish!

Why should we be concerned about obsolete business models failing? Why should we be concerned about inherently bad business models, like "renting" bits, vanishing?

We need to eliminate anti-circumvention laws as a first step, and then start talking about the possibility of completely upending the copyright system and replacing it with something that makes sense now that we have the Internet.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#19

Post by alanctgardner2 »

nwh wrote: post #11
Drakim wrote: post #6

How exactly would DRM for HTML5 work? Couldn't I just fork Chronimum or Firefox and make the browser save the video content in a file rather than showing it?

It wouldn't. DRM relies on obfuscation, and open source software obviously can't have that. They'll probably write a horribly insecure Silverlight plugin that will be cracked in a matter of minutes. ED: It looks like they'll have a "plugin" that does authentication with a remote server, and then decodes the frames sent to it. The browser displays them, or the DRM removal software sniffs the keys and decrypts the cont…

> a horribly insecure Silverlight plugin

This is about the HTML5 spec, so I don't even know where you get that idea from. They want to be able to lock down content which is embedded with the video tag.

Personally, I don't like the idea of it tying into the operating system. I'm willing to accept any solution that can be built into browser binaries, cross-platform. I don't like the idea of a solution that doesn't work as well on Linux or Macs, but if media companies think this sort of solution is necessary, we should meet them half-way.

Re: BBC demands DRM for HTML5

#20

Post by mistercow »

lukifer wrote: post #5

I hate DRM too, and yet I love watching Netflix streaming. The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc), the business model for online rental vanishes. The fact that DRM is always defeatable through hacks and analog loopholes doesn't matter: it just has to be good enough to deter the vast majority of users. I believe we need comprehensive IP reform across the boa…

>The fact is, if it's trivial to clone data to the point that regular users can do it (Napster, etc), the business model for online rental vanishes.

But it already is more trivial than Napster, so if that's your bar, the business model for online rentals and digital sales would already have vanished. And yet Netflix and iTunes seem to be doing OK.

Post reply on HN