Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing • Hacker News Board

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#201

Post by rmc » Tue, Feb 12, 2013, 3:59 PM UTC

gerhardi wrote: post #12

If I happen to think that it is funny, who has the right to say that my opinions or the feelings that the "sexist jokes" bring to my brain are wrong? Obviously one should also try to minimize the amount of content that may possibly cause harm to any number of people in the target audience, but the problem has a very abstract nature going all the way down to how and where to say what to whom and who gets to decide wha…

We're not saying your thoughts & feelings are wrong, just that you shouldn't do it in professional contexts.

I find having a wank nice. Doesn't mean I should do it at a presentation.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#202

Post by king_jester » Tue, Feb 12, 2013, 4:01 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #167

king_jester wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sorry, what point? The first thing that comes to mind is that the presenter wants to communicate that the tech is sexy. That kind of imagery is made for a male gaze and is oriented towards straight men, so how exactly does that convey sexy to a room full of people of different gender and different orientations? (hint: it doesn't and using that kind of imagery is very sexist and alienating)

I don't disagree that male gaze is a problem. But if you pick up anything targeted at women, they also use women to denote sexy things. So I don't think it's alienating. And why would it be degrading?

Advertising aimed for male gaze vs. advertising that attempts to sell to women are a bit different. For male gaze advertisement, women are reduced to an ownable sex object, typically parts of their face will be hidden or out of frame. You'll also see ads where the actual product is turned into a women or made to look like a women (for a media definition of a women looks like, in any case). Ads targeted towards women use other women to try and sell you the product so you can achieve what the ad represents the woman having.

In both cases, the ads are alienating. In male gaze ads women are explicitly not desired except as an object, so there's a very direct alienation there. For advertising selling to women, the ads serve to highlight elements that a women should have or is missing to in order to be the ideal, which is alienating as there is no such thing as an ideal women and everyone's needs are different.

I mentioned it earlier, but Killing Us Softly is a nice video lecture that covers a lot of this kind of material (this link is trailer only, I'm afraid): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTlmho_RovY

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#203

Post by 9392732 » Tue, Feb 12, 2013, 4:03 PM UTC

jimzvz wrote: post #189

klodolph wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then maybe try to fix that instead of complaining about bikinis in powerpoint presentations? 1. You say "instead", as if this were a choice between two alternatives. This is known as the "false dilemma", and it is a logical fallacy. 2. It is not clear how to fix the problem about discrimination based on names on CVs/résumés, whereas the solution to bikinis in powerpoint slides is much simpler (delete the pictures f…

> Suppose for a moment that you are a guy who just graduated from college, make $20,000 a year in your dream internship, and are on the long trek to success in your field. You're in a new city, and don't know many people. You're constantly bombarded with pictures of men who "made it", have $200k cars, wear $10k suits, drink $500 bottles of liquor, and buy their mistresses $80k pieces of jewelry. Now I'm going to kick…

Great post and full of truths

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#204

Post by klodolph » Tue, Feb 12, 2013, 4:07 PM UTC

jonnathanson wrote: post #192

klodolph wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone told me once that a contributing factor to the "jewish lawyer stereotype" was caused by law firms who discriminated against jews — who then started up their own law firms, and outcompeted all the other law firms because it's easier to find talent if you don't discriminate. The Harlem Globetrotters picked the best of the african-american basketball players, who were not welcome on other teams. The result was p…

I've heard that story as well. Same thing happened with investment banks. Legend has it that Goldman Sachs was started because Marcus Goldman and Samuel Sachs couldn't get jobs at WASPy firms. The other side of the coin is that the white-shoe firms didn't touch certain types of businesses (like M&A or IPOs) because those businesses were considered "ungentlemanly." So they were left to the Jewish firms, who developed…

I think the "unclean/uncouth" bit for handling money came from e.g. Exodus 22:24 (25), which prohibits charging interest to "my people". So if you're Jewish and believe that you're the chosen people, you can charge interest to Christians. If you're Christians and think the Jewish rejected the messiah, then you can charge interest to Jews — except there aren't very many, so you won't be able to make a living.

Another part of the medieval stereotype I think came from Jewish cultural emphasis on literacy so good Jewish boys could read the Torah. As a side effect, it's hard to do e.g. banking if you can't read.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#205

Post by w0utert » Tue, Feb 12, 2013, 4:08 PM UTC

klodolph wrote: post #177

jseliger wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexism is not isolated to acts of discrimination, it is a part of culture. Fixing sexism is not just about stopping discrimination, it is about changing culture Maybe, but I'm not convinced: again, see Sciolino as a counter-example. We bombard kids with pictures of sexy women in bikinis and men in lab coats, and wonder why there aren't as many women in tech even though they're so damn competent at it. There's some tr…

> But women in bikinis appear in so many contexts [...] because so many people apparently want to see women in bikinis. As far as I can tell, your argument is "because people like it, it is okay." This is obviously wrong, so please explain your argument in more detail. > see Sciolino as a counter-example An opinion held by a journalist is not a counter-example. You'll need something better than an argument to authori…

>> As far as I can tell, your argument is "because people like it, it is okay." This is obviously wrong, so please explain your argument in more detail.

I would be much more interested in your arguments for concluding it is 'obviously wrong' to choose the kind of imagery that the majority of people apparently enjoys looking at. I'm really trying to follow your reasoning here, but aside from possible personal ethics and morality I can't really think of a good reason to draw this conclusion. Isn't the whole idea of a 'common culture' between a group of people to act and express themselves in ways the majority enjoys and/or deems acceptable?

You could always argue the merits of American/western culture in general, and I would agree there are many things I dislike about that, but the way women are treated isn't one of them.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#206

Post by 9392732 » Tue, Feb 12, 2013, 4:13 PM UTC

king_jester wrote: post #164

9392732 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are allowed to consider race when you are choosing your level of outrage?

When white people are enslaved, removed from their native homeland, and used as a primary economic engine for another race for ~300 years, then we can start talking about outrage over the treatment white people get.

Like the Slavs? A group that spawned the word slave?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade

Now, start your talk please

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#207

Post by klodolph » Tue, Feb 12, 2013, 4:16 PM UTC

jimzvz wrote: post #189

klodolph wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then maybe try to fix that instead of complaining about bikinis in powerpoint presentations? 1. You say "instead", as if this were a choice between two alternatives. This is known as the "false dilemma", and it is a logical fallacy. 2. It is not clear how to fix the problem about discrimination based on names on CVs/résumés, whereas the solution to bikinis in powerpoint slides is much simpler (delete the pictures f…

> Suppose for a moment that you are a guy who just graduated from college, make $20,000 a year in your dream internship, and are on the long trek to success in your field. You're in a new city, and don't know many people. You're constantly bombarded with pictures of men who "made it", have $200k cars, wear $10k suits, drink $500 bottles of liquor, and buy their mistresses $80k pieces of jewelry. Now I'm going to kick…

Funny how I agree with lots of what you say but the conclusion is wrong. Yes, there are lots of ways in which men are discriminated against. No, it is still not okay to show pictures of women in underwear at conferences. Yes, showing such pictures makes you a sexist pig.

The reason I said "alternate reality" was because the quote about "six figures" was a complete fabrication, based on something a man actually said to a woman, but altered to play on typical male insecurities.

If your point is, "Gosh, men have it hard, too." Sure, I'll agree. But, you're laying on the hyperbole a bit thick.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#208

Post by w0utert » Tue, Feb 12, 2013, 4:17 PM UTC

rmc wrote: post #199

jseliger wrote: post #83

>A talk at a conference showing girls in bikinis. An API presentation from a sponsor featuring ladies in bras. A demo at a hack day with a slide of women in underwear. A business model canvas workshop using a strip club as an example to illustrate the tool. These are just a few examples of casual sexism I've experience at (tech) events. Where does sexy end and sexism begin? I too am against sexism (who isn't?), but m…

Your argument seems to be "It's common, so it must be moral". This is a silly reason to say a thing is OK.

Universal morality doesn't exist, so whether you like it or not, what most people deem acceptable is usually the closest thing we have to judge morality.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#209

Post by klodolph » Tue, Feb 12, 2013, 4:20 PM UTC

w0utert wrote: post #205

klodolph wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But women in bikinis appear in so many contexts [...] because so many people apparently want to see women in bikinis. As far as I can tell, your argument is "because people like it, it is okay." This is obviously wrong, so please explain your argument in more detail. > see Sciolino as a counter-example An opinion held by a journalist is not a counter-example. You'll need something better than an argument to authori…

>> As far as I can tell, your argument is "because people like it, it is okay." This is obviously wrong, so please explain your argument in more detail. I would be much more interested in your arguments for concluding it is 'obviously wrong' to choose the kind of imagery that the majority of people apparently enjoys looking at. I'm really trying to follow your reasoning here, but aside from possible personal ethics a…

> your arguments for concluding it is 'obviously wrong' to choose the kind of imagery

That's the wrong^H^H^H^H^Hincorrect antecedent. Sorry, my fault for using pronouns. I was saying that "because people like it, it is okay" is a flawed argument. It doesn't help that I meant "wrong" as in "unsound/incorrect" but the word has a second meaning of "unjust/immoral".

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#210

Post by coldtea » Tue, Feb 12, 2013, 4:21 PM UTC

elemenohpee wrote: post #143

coldtea wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, you just called me a "douche" in polite (from my part) conversation. That's your way of advocating for more politeness? Just goes to show the hypocrisy of the whole thing.

I'm not advocating politeness, I'm advocating for an egalitarian society. Women have historically been less free to express themselves, and sexist jokes and other discriminatory language continue to silence them. Douche was not the correct term, you are a coward. Rather than defend the freedom of those who have had to fight for it, you hide behind your own narcissistic conception of freedom and unexamined privilege.

You're "advocating for an egalitarian society"?

I'm even _more_ for an egalitarian society. And far more actually than merely getting some "bikini slides" off of tech presentations or ensuring women make the same as men.

I don't want women and men being paid less than other men and women and being treated as trash in the first place. That is, i'm a pro-left, in the marxist tradition. Now, do I get to call you a "coward" or a "capitalist pig" if you don't agree with me in this issue?

Furthermore, is a place full of actual and wannabe startup founders/millionaires, the place to accuse me of "hiding behind my own narcissistic conception of freedom and unexamined privilege"?

I find gagging on the gnat of "sexist slides" while digesting the camel of economic inequality hypocritical and counter-productive.

Bosses don't pay women less because they are sexist. They pay them less because they can (e.g talking advantage of the fact that women get maternal leave, or are better at work-life balance than men, and thus deemed less "devoted" to the company and such BS). If they could, they would pay anyone less (and when they can, they do). It's not about making them less "sexist" (there are women bosses that also pay women employees less). It's about making LAWS to force them to give equal pay for the same job description.