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Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

ilaba.wordpress.com

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Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#11

Post by crntaylor »

return0 wrote: post #2

It's hard to distinguish bias from genuine preconceptions based on experience - for that one would need gender neutral data that is impossible to obtain. The reverse kind of gender bias could be found in divorce custody cases for example. Maybe one could do an experiment in online job marketplaces: change the gender of a large number of work providers and observe how payouts change. In any case this was a shallow and…

Maybe one could do an experiment in online job marketplaces: change the gender of a large number of work providers and observe how payouts change.

Do you really think that the problem is that enough studies haven't been done?

The linked article mentions a study on the gender pay gap in academia[0], the results section of which includes

    "After 

accounting 
for [
underrepresentation of women at the full Professor level
     allocation of faculty members across departmental units, and experience]
 there

     remains 
an unexplained
 female
 pay 
disadvantage
 of 
about 
$3000.
 This
 finding 
is
     
robust 
to 
alternative 
specifications 
of
 the
 gender
 gap
 decomposition."
and later

   "... the 
female 
salary 
disadvantage 
found
 in
 the
 study
 can be
 interpreted
 as
     
a 
lower 
bound."
There is a similar study based on results from the financial industry, which if anything is even more extreme[1]



    "The gender pay gap for annual gross earnings in the sector is 60 per cent."

    "There is a gender gap of 80 per cent for performance-related pay"

    "The gender pay gap in finance sector companies cannot be explained away as a
     historical legacy. Analysis of salaries for new recruits shows that in 86 percent
     of the cases reported to us, women have lower salaries than men."

    "In 63 per cent of cases more than half of all job grades/categories exhibited a
     significant gender pay gap."
[0] http://www.facultyassociation.ubc.ca/docs/news/GenderPayEqui...

[1] http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/financial_...

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#12

Post by UnoriginalGuy »

The word "fact" is used extremely loosely in this article. While the first "fact" is in fact factual it then very quickly goes down the rabbit hole of personal opinion/perspective.

By the time we get to "fact 3" the author isn't even pretending any more and the "fact" is just a bizarre "you're a mathematician, you can solve this!!1!" point...

I'm happy to have a discussion about gender politics/equality, this article is just a very poor starting point for such a discussion.

This is nothing more than a rant, pretending to be something more.

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#13

Post by return0 »

crntaylor wrote: post #11
return0 wrote: post #2

It's hard to distinguish bias from genuine preconceptions based on experience - for that one would need gender neutral data that is impossible to obtain. The reverse kind of gender bias could be found in divorce custody cases for example. Maybe one could do an experiment in online job marketplaces: change the gender of a large number of work providers and observe how payouts change. In any case this was a shallow and…

Maybe one could do an experiment in online job marketplaces: change the gender of a large number of work providers and observe how payouts change. Do you really think that the problem is that enough studies haven't been done? The linked article mentions a study on the gender pay gap in academia[0], the results section of which includes "After accounting for [ underrepresentation of women at the full Professor level a…

I know there is a gender pay gap. The question is: how do we know it's not justified? Presumably the pay reflects the work done

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#14

Post by shardling »

A couple of background points I had to poke around the site for:

* The author is a professor of mathematics

* The thing about Math Overflow (which as a non-regular reader seemed to kinda come out of nowhere) is referencing another recent blog post: http://ilaba.wordpress.com/2012/12/16/still-not-on-mathoverf...

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#15

Post by fhars »

sprash wrote: post #6

The average man is pumped full of a hormone called testosterone. This leads them to take more risks and have a generally more aggressive way of doing things. This fact has been scientifically proven over and over again. In a fast moving market with high competition you need these qualities hence it is no secret why in average males are more employable in tech than women. This is a healthy market response and has noth…

Actually, organizing markets in a way that they favour one gender over another is an instance of sexist bias.

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#16

Post by return0 »

shardling wrote: post #7
return0 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, my main point was that it's not pure bias, there might be real reasons why women get paid less and men are considered bad fathers (personally, i don't agree with both statements, but see the wsj article). I suggest, if we want to get rid of this bias, change the underlying situation that perpetuates it (e.g. not by introducing gender quotas, but by making childraising less time-consuming, or educating men to be b…

You have (I hope unwittingly?) just fulfilled one of the specific tropes she does mention.

... And which she outright dismisses citing an irrelevant study. (I did mention it's a poor article, didn't i?)

  When we talk about real-life statistical evidence, that’s  
  not conclusive, either, because all differences are   
  explained by women having babies, other priorities, etc 
 (Except they’re not, as the linked document explains very clearly.)
The linked document is a report with some recommendations about how to measure pay gap

Btw, can someone explain the usage of the word "trope" here?

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#17

Post by almost »

sprash wrote: post #6

The average man is pumped full of a hormone called testosterone. This leads them to take more risks and have a generally more aggressive way of doing things. This fact has been scientifically proven over and over again. In a fast moving market with high competition you need these qualities hence it is no secret why in average males are more employable in tech than women. This is a healthy market response and has noth…

Article is talking about Math, not tech (although we have the same problem). It also starts with a specific study showing a female name alone reduces the perceived competence of a mathematician in the eyes of others (including woman).

So if you are correct that increased testosterone leads to men being more driven to achieve that still leaves the fact that when a woman "overcomes" her lack of testosterone and achieves the same as a man sheis still judged as being less competent than a man.

This kind of thing is hard. I don't think there are easy solutions, but let's not pretend the problem doesn't exist.

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#18

Post by [deleted] »

return0 wrote: post #13
crntaylor wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe one could do an experiment in online job marketplaces: change the gender of a large number of work providers and observe how payouts change. Do you really think that the problem is that enough studies haven't been done? The linked article mentions a study on the gender pay gap in academia[0], the results section of which includes "After accounting for [ underrepresentation of women at the full Professor level a…

I know there is a gender pay gap. The question is: how do we know it's not justified? Presumably the pay reflects the work done

[deleted]

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#19

Post by lclarkmichalek »

speeder wrote: post #8
speeder wrote: post #5

Gender bias will never cease to exist, and for good reasons, the fight for equality happened many times before in history, and never ended well. Male and female are very dismorphic, we cannot change that easily, male and female have very specialized roles and purposes. Yes, I am happy that people now in general have more equal opportunity than ever, and that we can have awesome workers on some areas from any backgrou…

I love HN, I make a huge post, and when the page finishes loading the tread again it is already downvoted

Well you didn't really change your argument or raise any interesting points half way through. I mean, you're probably better off that people don't finish it if you want to avoid downvotes, considering that you suggest discrimination against gay people is due to societies wanting to maintain a population.

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#20

Post by speeder »

return0 wrote: post #9
speeder wrote: post #5

Gender bias will never cease to exist, and for good reasons, the fight for equality happened many times before in history, and never ended well. Male and female are very dismorphic, we cannot change that easily, male and female have very specialized roles and purposes. Yes, I am happy that people now in general have more equal opportunity than ever, and that we can have awesome workers on some areas from any backgrou…

- The fight for gender equality is exclusively 20th century thing (correction 18+ century and limited to the industrial world); never happened before - Gender equality wasn't imposed in society by an external entity, it was brought about because it was essential (not only on moral grounds but economic as well) - Most societies for most of history were less hostile to homo/bi-sexuality than the modern (pre-1970s) West…

It happened before, I will see if later I find some paper links to paste here.

Also gender equality was not needed in the current society, it is that the current society made it possible, quite different.

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