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Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

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Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#2
It's hard to distinguish bias from genuine preconceptions based on experience - for that one would need gender neutral data that is impossible to obtain. The reverse kind of gender bias could be found in divorce custody cases for example.

Maybe one could do an experiment in online job marketplaces: change the gender of a large number of work providers and observe how payouts change.

In any case this was a shallow and one-sided article. [But suitable for Sunday morning heated arguments over coffee and cookies]

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.174-1617.2000.t...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230359240457736...

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#3
post #2

It's hard to distinguish bias from genuine preconceptions based on experience - for that one would need gender neutral data that is impossible to obtain. The reverse kind of gender bias could be found in divorce custody cases for example. Maybe one could do an experiment in online job marketplaces: change the gender of a large number of work providers and observe how payouts change. In any case this was a shallow and…

I almost wish the author had included this trope too: "If I begin a conversation about sexism I am experiencing, that means that sexism against men must immediately become part of the focus of the conversation".

It's not that those issues are unimportant, but does it not strike you as strange that the very first comment doesn't discuss the content of the article directly, but does make sure to bring up sexism against men? It's not the first time this has happened, either, on HN or elsewhere.

(And, sure, this may be the first time you've brought it up. But just like the other issues she's bringing up, the "what about the men who are discriminated against?" response is a durable and ubiquitous trend. Check any other HN thread that mentions sexism if you don't believe me. It therefore becomes very annoying to people trying to have a conversation about the persistent sexism against women in technology/maths/science spaces.)

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#4
post #3
post #2

It's hard to distinguish bias from genuine preconceptions based on experience - for that one would need gender neutral data that is impossible to obtain. The reverse kind of gender bias could be found in divorce custody cases for example. Maybe one could do an experiment in online job marketplaces: change the gender of a large number of work providers and observe how payouts change. In any case this was a shallow and…

I almost wish the author had included this trope too: "If I begin a conversation about sexism I am experiencing, that means that sexism against men must immediately become part of the focus of the conversation". It's not that those issues are unimportant, but does it not strike you as strange that the very first comment doesn't discuss the content of the article directly, but does make sure to bring up sexism against…

No, my main point was that it's not pure bias, there might be real reasons why women get paid less and men are considered bad fathers (personally, i don't agree with both statements, but see the wsj article). I suggest, if we want to get rid of this bias, change the underlying situation that perpetuates it (e.g. not by introducing gender quotas, but by making childraising less time-consuming, or educating men to be better fathers and getting rid of ridiculous stereotypes that are perpetuated in mass culture).

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#5
Gender bias will never cease to exist, and for good reasons, the fight for equality happened many times before in history, and never ended well.

Male and female are very dismorphic, we cannot change that easily, male and female have very specialized roles and purposes.

Yes, I am happy that people now in general have more equal opportunity than ever, and that we can have awesome workers on some areas from any background, but we should not push it too much now, society now is already very different, and failing in some aspects, more equality won't make things better, but can make things worse, much worse.

Understand that past societies were not forced to be the way they were, they just changed until they settled on something that works, and it worked for good reasons.

Why several societies in the world are severely against gays, especially male ones? It is because it was very important on these societies to have children, not having children was unacceptable. Today having children became too expensive, so the focus of relationships changed, and now several countries even allow gay marriage or civil union, but the need to maintain your population don't changed.

Some people will argue about over population, yes, I agree that it is a danger, but we must remember that we are not even replacing our populations, we are outright declining, and the result will be some cultures disappearing, and others with higher birth rates taking their place.

The funny thing about equality seeking cultures, is that they tend to erase themselves and give way to totally non equal cultures to take their place.

People forget that we still live in a world, where in many contexts, might make right.

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#6
The average man is pumped full of a hormone called testosterone. This leads them to take more risks and have a generally more aggressive way of doing things. This fact has been scientifically proven over and over again.

In a fast moving market with high competition you need these qualities hence it is no secret why in average males are more employable in tech than women. This is a healthy market response and has nothing to do with sexism.

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#7
post #4
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I almost wish the author had included this trope too: "If I begin a conversation about sexism I am experiencing, that means that sexism against men must immediately become part of the focus of the conversation". It's not that those issues are unimportant, but does it not strike you as strange that the very first comment doesn't discuss the content of the article directly, but does make sure to bring up sexism against…

No, my main point was that it's not pure bias, there might be real reasons why women get paid less and men are considered bad fathers (personally, i don't agree with both statements, but see the wsj article). I suggest, if we want to get rid of this bias, change the underlying situation that perpetuates it (e.g. not by introducing gender quotas, but by making childraising less time-consuming, or educating men to be b…

You have (I hope unwittingly?) just fulfilled one of the specific tropes she does mention.

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#8
post #5

Gender bias will never cease to exist, and for good reasons, the fight for equality happened many times before in history, and never ended well. Male and female are very dismorphic, we cannot change that easily, male and female have very specialized roles and purposes. Yes, I am happy that people now in general have more equal opportunity than ever, and that we can have awesome workers on some areas from any backgrou…

I love HN, I make a huge post, and when the page finishes loading the tread again it is already downvoted

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#9
post #5

Gender bias will never cease to exist, and for good reasons, the fight for equality happened many times before in history, and never ended well. Male and female are very dismorphic, we cannot change that easily, male and female have very specialized roles and purposes. Yes, I am happy that people now in general have more equal opportunity than ever, and that we can have awesome workers on some areas from any backgrou…

- The fight for gender equality is exclusively 20th century thing (correction 18+ century and limited to the industrial world); never happened before

- Gender equality wasn't imposed in society by an external entity, it was brought about because it was essential (not only on moral grounds but economic as well)

- Most societies for most of history were less hostile to homo/bi-sexuality than the modern (pre-1970s) West (Even in today's islamic countries there's a dont-ask-dont-tell attitude)

You also seem to forget that the Western culture was not invented or developed by the same ethnic groups who maintain it nowadays.

[edited for corrections]

Re: Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians

#10
post #6

The average man is pumped full of a hormone called testosterone. This leads them to take more risks and have a generally more aggressive way of doing things. This fact has been scientifically proven over and over again. In a fast moving market with high competition you need these qualities hence it is no secret why in average males are more employable in tech than women. This is a healthy market response and has noth…

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