Speaking up • Hacker News Board

Re: Speaking up

#211

Post by EliRivers » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 10:18 PM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #170

zamryok wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Furthermore, it seems clear that the way she was attacked was specifically designed to exploit at least the following : - the fact that she is a woman adressing a predominantly male audience (the fake porno) - the ambient objectification of women in society How can that not count as sexist?

Excuse my ignorance, just wondering: is it established that porn is sexist? Are they demeaning to the male actors in porn, too? Or is the underlying value that it is demeaning for a woman to have sex? It seems to me a universal judgement isn't easy to come by?

"is it established that porn is sexist?"

It is, yes. The vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of porn panders to a specifically, typically male fantasy (and bravado) of sexual interaction.

Re: Speaking up

#212

Post by gfodor » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 10:19 PM UTC

rdl wrote: post #173

mwetzler wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think two things make it more likely for me to encounter incidents of sexism: 1) I do some programming for my job, but a majority of it involves going out and meeting other developers, learning about their work, and seeing how we can make our API better for them. I live in SF so I can't get a coffee without bumping into another developer. I bet I have many more interactions than someone who is developing full time…

Also I guess people are more likely to either be "careful" or to adapt their behavior successfully if there's one woman on a 5 person team and one or more of the guys are in some way sexist or inappropriate, than if it's a casual interaction with someone at a coffeeshop or conference. I don't know how I feel about the "Beards of Experience" thing. I guess I'd be annoyed if it were a permanent branding of the site, bu…

It's stupid crap like "Beards of Experience" though that fall out of the ephemeral "boys club" in our industry which in turn re-enforce it. This ultimately allows morons like that mentioned by the OP to have the balls to stay something overtly sexist. It's all part of the same problem. It's a giant embarrassment and it wasn't always like this. And it's not a "technology" thing or a "software" thing, it's a "startuppy web/mobile application development" thing so it has nothing to do with the actual discipline but more to do with a rotten aspect of the culture that's grown out of control.

The solution, in my view, has less to do with going out of our way to bring women into the fold and more to do with not putting stupid shit like "Beards of Experience" on your homepage.

Re: Speaking up

#213

Post by itsybitsycoder » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 10:25 PM UTC

thaumaturgy wrote: post #205

overgryphon wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The software development community attracts socially awkward people by accepting them- and consequently accepting behaviors that are not seen as acceptable in most parts of society. For example, most of the software development community would see a 22yo guy persistently pursuing a girl who clearly isn't interested as innocent, awkward, and empathize with the guy's rejection (or lack there of, since he probably doesn…

I don't think "we" as a community can or should outright reject people who behave badly. We can only reject (or try to change) their behavior. Let's not forget that 8+ hours a day in front of a little glowing box nearly requires a specific personality type. If people who are bad at dealing with other people are blocked from software development, the field would suffer (a lot). > ...a 22yo guy persistently pursuing a…

Romcoms are fiction. There are loads of "romantic" movies where, if acted out IRL, the hero would be rightly arrested on felony charges. They're not meant to be taken as instructional.

Re: Speaking up

#214

Post by throwaway54-762 » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 10:26 PM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #195

throwaway54-762 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exists != happens systematically. Something like fully 1/3-1/4 of women are harassed or raped during the course of their life. ONE IN FOUR. Can you imagine, one out of every four men you know in tech being stalked, harassed, or abused? While men being stalked is terrible, it simply isn't on the same scale as the stalking of women.

The question was if a similar scenario could have played out for a man. I don't know what your answer has to do with anything. I am as sorry for women who have been raped as the next guy. Wish I could help prevent such things happening. I actually started researching that a bit. I grant that I am not yet convinced of the 1 in 4 statistics (see http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html for example), but in any c…

"Could have" is reaching out into the hypotheticals… as other commenters have said, "let's focus on what has happened." I'm not trying to mob on you, but this branch of hypothetical thinking is always brought up in response to this kind of story, usually by men. It is problematic because it distracts attention from the main issue: systematic harassment of women in our community.

Bringing up this hypothetical is a distraction/derailment tactic used by what I will call 'agents of the patriarchy,' un-wittingly or no. So when you say it, just understand why feminists get annoyed…

Re: Speaking up

#215

Post by Tichy » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 10:28 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #211

Tichy wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse my ignorance, just wondering: is it established that porn is sexist? Are they demeaning to the male actors in porn, too? Or is the underlying value that it is demeaning for a woman to have sex? It seems to me a universal judgement isn't easy to come by?

"is it established that porn is sexist?" It is, yes. The vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of porn panders to a specifically, typically male fantasy (and bravado) of sexual interaction.

That seems to imply that male fantasies would be predominantly about humiliating women?

Re: Speaking up

#216

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 10:32 PM UTC

detst wrote: post #124

timsally wrote: post #90

Whenever an instance of blatant sexism comes up, an attempt is invariably made to rationalize away the fact that a sexist act has actually occurred. We have had two such attempts made here so far and I expect more. One commentator is attempting to advance the baseless theory that the bully did not care about the sex of his victim. This particular individual even goes so far to say that "the biggest problem" is the al…

How do you know the motivation of this person? Every time one of these stories come up, someone tries to call other people out for rationalizing. It's not rationalizing, it's calling it as they see it: someone being an asshole. If you want blatant sexism, FTA: "no offence, I just don’t relate to girls speaking about the industry at all, I learn better from guys". That's sexism. It's not denial if you don't know the m…

[deleted]

Re: Speaking up

#217

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 10:34 PM UTC

mwetzler wrote: post #179

Tichy wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest I don't understand what this has to do with sexism. I would think this is actually a crime (stalking?) committed by some deranged individual, whose real motivations we don't know anything about. Even if they were "hatred of women" or whatever, I fail to see what the lesson to be learned from that should be? Is the implied assumption that the deed was encouraged by rampant sexism in the industry? In the l…

Sexism definition: Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex. This was clearly sexism since it was demeaning to the woman and her gender was used as a part of that (e.g. the fact that pictures of naked women were used in the attack). If the same happened to a man, we would probably call it harassment, not sexism, since men at large are not discriminated against based on…

Was it really rooted in sexism? Or was it just a convenient way to attack? I'm not even sure it matters. It was definitely a cheap tasteless tactic to employ.

Re: Speaking up

#218

Post by belorn » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 10:34 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #204

hagios wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a LOT of blatant sexism in the tech sector. The more specialized you get, the worse things get. It's a pretty well documented problem (e.g. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm... for a collection of security related anecdotes). This kind of culture turns away lots of tremendously talented people, and those who choose to endure a culture which seems to be slanted against them generall…

"It's a pretty well documented problem (e.g. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/08/sexual_harassm... . for a collection of security related anecdotes" At this point, I'd say it was the opposite of well documented and that's a problem. We do not have the statistics on this since it is not being reported to law enforcement or another body that collects these statistics. Does tech have more incidents than lawyer…

Thank god, someone that gets it.

We are technologist. Many of us are academics. If someone writes or talks about how a compiler is slow, the community will demand more than anecdotes. We expect numbers, tested theories, and verified results. When people come to us with anecdotes, we often use "less than nice" ways to disregard what they say. hmm, I see parallels...

There looks to be a number of excellent evidence to prove that there is a gender equality issue in IT, but there is no scientific research on what the causes are. Is it the general culture in the world and IT has the same level as other industries? Is it because of the question/answer culture of engineers, which is an aspect currently being researched in regard to gender equality. Is it a lack of respect for women in the IT field?

I can think of plentiful number of ways to test those concept, work that anthropology might want to do if we asked them. We could also pay them to do it. Maybe that could be someones kickstarter project?

I have a strong conviction that if someone would bring scientific data on the issue on what the causes are and how to fix them, in a verifiable way, few would object. Can a strong worded policy document have an statistic proven effect in discourage sexism in a conference? If you think so, verify it with data. Get 10 conference to do it, and collect data from it and 10 other without any such document. If its verifyable, every conference should adapt one after that. Do you think negative IRC comments is the problem? Switch a number of projects to a moderated communication channel and test the concept. Compare a unmoderated IRC with a project page like stackoverflow. Bring data, do some science, show it to the community. Its the exact same thing we expect from anyone else when they want to do changes to the things the community care about.

Re: Speaking up

#219

Post by DanBC » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 10:37 PM UTC

rachelbythebay wrote: post #135

mwetzler wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On Friday I pitched my company to a room of 150 developers, since my company was a hackathon sponsor. I was the only female speaker out of about 15. Afterwards, a well-known, elite developer asked me if I programmed. When I said yes, he said that made me 50% less attractive. Then he asked me if I cooked and cleaned. To my face. You don't have to be high profile to deal with this stuff. Just being in a room where you'…

I wonder what would happen if someone found out who this "elite developer" was.

I don't know how it works in the US, but it's her face and her name, so can't she just get a lawyer to get a court to order the website to hand over some details? And then get another court to get the ISP to hand over some more details? And then give those to the police?

Re: Speaking up

#220

Post by EliRivers » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 10:37 PM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #215

EliRivers wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"is it established that porn is sexist?" It is, yes. The vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of porn panders to a specifically, typically male fantasy (and bravado) of sexual interaction.

That seems to imply that male fantasies would be predominantly about humiliating women?

No, it does not. The following makes no claims about male fantasy or porn; it is merely a means of explaining that you have made an incorrect inference.

Imagine if you will that, hypothetically, 10% of male fantasy is about humiliating women. Imagine also, hypothetically, that all porn is based on that 10%. In this way, you can see that it is possible for all porn to be about humiliating women, but that does not imply that the majority of male fantasy is about that.

Put another way, if all cows are black, it does not mean that everything black is a cow. If all porn is based on a male fantasy, it does not mean that all male fantasy is represented in porn.