"Most of you steal your software" • Hacker News Board

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#81

Post by sp332 » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 4:12 PM UTC

jscheel wrote: post #58

It's amazing, and frankly stupid, how many people try to justify theft. Sorry guys, regardless of what utopian ideals of OSS you have, and I have them too, you must respect the creator's wishes. If they ask you to pay for the software, then you MUST pay for the software. Anything else is theft. Let's say you are a freelance developer. Do you think for one second that it would be ok for your clients to let you do all…

They can't force you to pay for the software after they have already decided to release the code under an open license. As a high-profile example, Red Hat sells Red Hat Enterprise Linux (with various support options). But they release release (most of) their code under various open-source licenses, and the Centos project builds a binary-compatible OS with only the trademarked Red Hat stuff changed.

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#82

Post by edraferi » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 4:16 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #61

alan_cx wrote: post #37

... and as a result poor Bill has lived in total poverty, only to die of scurvy in a slum. His business died with out trace and he never been heard of since. A tragic story. Yes, bad hobbyists. Point being, despite all the piracy, there is still some money to be made. The complaint is that such folk are not making enough money. See, Bill should be twice or 3 times as rich. Man, he's really losing out. Of course then…

Part of this subthread discusses how Bill Gates started out in life and how much he has prospered since he wrote the open letter. Just on that point, it might be of interest to check an online post "Why Bill Gates is Richer than You" (more than a decade old, before Gates got involved in philanthropy full time) about how he made his money. http://philip.greenspun.com/humor/bill-gates Note that I have not fact-checked…

Interesting link, with some prescience:

"What most users want, though, is a cheap simple device that lets them collaborate with others... Thus the market for computing may in the end boil down to simple stuff to be used by consumers and reliable stuff to be operated by professional IT staff. Windows is way too complex for most consumers and difficult to justify on the server side when you can run Linux for free."

e.g. "someday we'll just build the cloud on LAMP"

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#83

Post by bjustin » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 4:17 PM UTC

TheCapn wrote: post #64

monochromatic wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your sentiment, but it's not actually "theft." More like "copyright infringement."

We all understand what is being discussed here. We don't need to argue semantics over what it means to obtain something you didn't pay for (but should have). It seems that the tech community stands adamantly behind the "copyright infringement isn't theft" mantra but in reality the moral crime is taking something you weren't entitled to. Our actions don't really seem to consider the state of the original product makin…

Equating a lesser crime (copyright infringement) with a greater crime (theft) diminishes the weight of the greater crime[1].

To use a ridiculous example, if you say that taking a picture of a statue is the same as stealing the statue, any accusations you make of theft will not be taken very seriously.

[1] My basis for this claim is that taking $40 that I already have is worse than not giving me $40 for a license to software that I wrote.

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#84

Post by ericbb » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 4:28 PM UTC

jscheel wrote: post #58

It's amazing, and frankly stupid, how many people try to justify theft. Sorry guys, regardless of what utopian ideals of OSS you have, and I have them too, you must respect the creator's wishes. If they ask you to pay for the software, then you MUST pay for the software. Anything else is theft. Let's say you are a freelance developer. Do you think for one second that it would be ok for your clients to let you do all…

The utopian ideal that is relevant here is the ideal that information should never be considered property. So you can't properly claim to be one of the utopian idealists while using the words "theft" and "stealing" here.

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#85

Post by edraferi » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 4:32 PM UTC

narcissus wrote: post #50

I read once where Bill Gates predicted that eventually people would buy software and that the hardware would be free. I can't remember where I read it ('Business at the Speed of Light', maybe?) but it stuck with me as just, well, ridiculous. Anyway, the fact that he says "As the majority of hobbyists must be aware, most of you steal your software. Hardware must be paid for, but software is something to share." kind o…

This is not ridiculous, it's the definition of Software as a Service.

There are two main factors at play:

1) Cost of reproduction (copying) 2) Value to end user

Hardware has historically been harder to reproduce because it's physical. This gap is closing as hardware becomes a commodity. You don't need a server anymore - just spin one up on EC2. Need chips? visit a Chinese bulk electronics markets and buy them by the scoop.

Software provides more value to the end user because it makes the hardware do something. People pay for great software because it cleverly moves information around to meet their needs. You still need hardware to run it, eventually, but it becomes dramatically less important. The servers that power your webmail are entirely abstract to an end user. Angry Birds runs on basically anything. etc

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#86

Post by shmerl » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 4:47 PM UTC

slurgfest wrote: post #69

shmerl wrote: post #9

Yes, this is a famous letter which can be considered a foundation of Microsoft's historic hostility to any open technologies.

Piracy is not the same as "open technologies" in any way. In fact, the latter prevents the former (if I settle on GIMP instead of pirating Photoshop...)

If you read it carefully it's not just about piracy. It's against sharing (which in open source happens without any piracy). His basic idea - sharing prevents good software from being written. I.e. only closed paid model can be incentive to create good software. It's the cornerstone idea of Microsoft and is very in line with their historic hatred towards open technologies which they always saw as a threat (and obviously not because of piracy). It also is in line with their aggressive approach to enforcing patents and copyrights.

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#87

Post by jscheel » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 4:47 PM UTC

decode wrote: post #75

jscheel wrote: post #58

It's amazing, and frankly stupid, how many people try to justify theft. Sorry guys, regardless of what utopian ideals of OSS you have, and I have them too, you must respect the creator's wishes. If they ask you to pay for the software, then you MUST pay for the software. Anything else is theft. Let's say you are a freelance developer. Do you think for one second that it would be ok for your clients to let you do all…

> Sorry guys, regardless of what utopian ideals of OSS you have, and I have them too, you must respect the creator's wishes. If they ask you to pay for the software, then you MUST pay for the software. Anything else is theft. In a legal sense, this is patently false in every country I know of. Even ignoring the point others have made that theft is not copyright infringement under the law, the assertion is false. Ever…

Good thing I'm not a complete idiot, or I wouldn't know or understand fair use. People tend to forget that fair use is limited in its scope. Unfortunately, a lot of people's idea of fair use is, "I want it, so I'm gonna take it." It IS a moral imperative. It IS stealing. I don't care how you sugarcoat it. In high-school and the first part of my college life, I pirated music and applications with impunity. I justified it every way I could, but at the end of the day, I realized I was stealing -- regardless of what nuanced legal argument I could come up with. It drives me crazy when people say "it's not stealing, it's just copyright infringement," like that magically makes what they are doing better.

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#88

Post by cjwfnewkjrnew » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 4:48 PM UTC

TheCapn wrote: post #64

monochromatic wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your sentiment, but it's not actually "theft." More like "copyright infringement."

We all understand what is being discussed here. We don't need to argue semantics over what it means to obtain something you didn't pay for (but should have). It seems that the tech community stands adamantly behind the "copyright infringement isn't theft" mantra but in reality the moral crime is taking something you weren't entitled to. Our actions don't really seem to consider the state of the original product makin…

Theft is too strong a word, because nothing is taken away from the company who makes the product. The moral imperative here doesn't come from actual harm to an individual, it comes from the notion that someone should be rewarded for their hard work if others benefit from it. Which is much weaker. If someone copies something they would never have paid for otherwise, then there is very little harm done indeed.

Don't get me wrong, I like the notion that it is morally right for people to be rewarded for their hard work if it benefits others. However, if we're going to enforce it, shouldn't we start by trying to stop the exploitation of poor people before we go all nuts over sob stories from software giants, record companies and movie studios?

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#89

Post by tjr » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 4:48 PM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #73

TheCapn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all understand what is being discussed here. We don't need to argue semantics over what it means to obtain something you didn't pay for (but should have). It seems that the tech community stands adamantly behind the "copyright infringement isn't theft" mantra but in reality the moral crime is taking something you weren't entitled to. Our actions don't really seem to consider the state of the original product makin…

Copyright infringement is very different from theft. First, if you copy one of my books, say from someone who bought it in pdf format from the O'Reilly site, you have not denied the owner access to his paid copy. You have not robbed anyone of a physical artifact with a measurable cost. Second, such as act doesn't even rise to the status of "theft of service." It isn't like sneaking into another movie theater after wa…

How insignificant are they? So insignificant that simply by telling me you will write a review, I would give you a copy for free.

I would agree with that.

But if someone tells me, "I want a copy, but even though you are asking $5 per copy, I don't think it's worth anything at all. Give one to me for free." ... I would not be so quick to hand over a copy in that case, and, based on anecdotal conversations with others, I suspect that is closer to the mentality of a lot of folks who are committing the trivial crime of copyright infringement.

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#90

Post by jscheel » Mon, Feb 04, 2013, 4:51 PM UTC

slurgfest wrote: post #68

jscheel wrote: post #58

It's amazing, and frankly stupid, how many people try to justify theft. Sorry guys, regardless of what utopian ideals of OSS you have, and I have them too, you must respect the creator's wishes. If they ask you to pay for the software, then you MUST pay for the software. Anything else is theft. Let's say you are a freelance developer. Do you think for one second that it would be ok for your clients to let you do all…

It's amazing, and frankly stupid, how quickly you slid from piracy to OSS. OSS has nothing to do with piracy. If I licensed my project MIT, sharing it is not piracy. OSS platforms do not have thriving piracy ecosystems because there is plenty of OSS software for them. In my experience, people who believe in OSS are the most likely to champion using a legal OSS alternative to pirating some widely-used proprietary soft…

I've released plenty of OSS myself, and I agree with what you are saying. Unfortunately, the OSS movement is also co-opted by people who are willing to steal to get what they want, and use ideological mantras of the OSS movement to justify their actions.