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"Most of you steal your software"

lettersofnote.com

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Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#61

Post by tokenadult »

alan_cx wrote: post #37

... and as a result poor Bill has lived in total poverty, only to die of scurvy in a slum. His business died with out trace and he never been heard of since. A tragic story. Yes, bad hobbyists. Point being, despite all the piracy, there is still some money to be made. The complaint is that such folk are not making enough money. See, Bill should be twice or 3 times as rich. Man, he's really losing out. Of course then…

Part of this subthread discusses how Bill Gates started out in life and how much he has prospered since he wrote the open letter. Just on that point, it might be of interest to check an online post "Why Bill Gates is Richer than You" (more than a decade old, before Gates got involved in philanthropy full time) about how he made his money.

http://philip.greenspun.com/humor/bill-gates

Note that I have not fact-checked this at all, so if anyone has any factual corrections or updates (which could come from one of the published biographical writings about Gates), I would be glad to hear them.

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#62

Post by hawleyal »

moccajoghurt wrote: post #54

Don't review the letter from today's perspective. Bill Gates didn't know that his work will spread over the world and he will become one of the richest persons alive. He didn't know that there will be a huge open source community in the future, where it is normal to develop software for free. All he knew is that he was working fulltime on something for three years and wasn't payed for it. For me this letter is just a…

I disagree.

Stallman was hacking in 1976 and many of his ilk were free software advocates.

Gates knew what he was doing. He derived his work from others, but denied others the same leeway.

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#63

Post by OGinparadise »

rbanffy wrote: post #49
ghjm wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But he wasn't, or anything close to it, when he wrote this letter.

He wasn't anything close to poverty either.

He wasn't anything close to poverty either.

OK, if you aren't poor, give me $10K then. According to me, you have enough!

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#64

Post by TheCapn »

monochromatic wrote: post #60
jscheel wrote: post #58

It's amazing, and frankly stupid, how many people try to justify theft. Sorry guys, regardless of what utopian ideals of OSS you have, and I have them too, you must respect the creator's wishes. If they ask you to pay for the software, then you MUST pay for the software. Anything else is theft. Let's say you are a freelance developer. Do you think for one second that it would be ok for your clients to let you do all…

I agree with your sentiment, but it's not actually "theft." More like "copyright infringement."

We all understand what is being discussed here. We don't need to argue semantics over what it means to obtain something you didn't pay for (but should have).

It seems that the tech community stands adamantly behind the "copyright infringement isn't theft" mantra but in reality the moral crime is taking something you weren't entitled to. Our actions don't really seem to consider the state of the original product making the difference between "theft" and "copyright infringement" because it is not concerning to us. For the developer/distributor/publisher/artist or whomever is expecting a cut from sales the result is the same: they lost a part of their wage.

Admittedly I've done my share of piracy but now that I spend a good chunk of my free time releasing software or writing code I have stopped; it feels kind of shitty to see something taken without any regard for your hardships. Hell, as a result I even go out of my way to make sure developers are paid their dues by purchasing almost any app I use. If I come to expect others to pay/donate for my effort it is quite hypocritical to not do the same as a consumer.

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#66

Post by laumars »

moccajoghurt wrote: post #54

Don't review the letter from today's perspective. Bill Gates didn't know that his work will spread over the world and he will become one of the richest persons alive. He didn't know that there will be a huge open source community in the future, where it is normal to develop software for free. All he knew is that he was working fulltime on something for three years and wasn't payed for it. For me this letter is just a…

Except, the hobbyist community back then was even further removed from commercialisation than the open source market is today.

The hobbyist community back then was based around clubs of people sharing their achievements; the computers they built, software they'd written and any neat tricks they'd invented (like using the electrical interference of the original Altar to play a tune on a radio http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgYhVnmeWrk ). The hobbyist community was very much driven by sharing ideas and code.

This is why people got annoyed at that letter. It not only flew against everything the community was built around, but also made some heavy criticisms about their members as well.

When you review that letter in the context of the community is was directed at and the time it was written, it seems even more out of place than it does today.

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#67

Post by IgorPartola »

TheCapn wrote: post #64
monochromatic wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your sentiment, but it's not actually "theft." More like "copyright infringement."

We all understand what is being discussed here. We don't need to argue semantics over what it means to obtain something you didn't pay for (but should have). It seems that the tech community stands adamantly behind the "copyright infringement isn't theft" mantra but in reality the moral crime is taking something you weren't entitled to. Our actions don't really seem to consider the state of the original product makin…

I do not advocate piracy, and do believe that people should be paid for their work. However, you are wrong. Theft means that the original owner no longer has the item stolen from them. Copying something from them most definitely leaves them with the original. That is one way in which piracy is not like theft. I would much rather someone download a copy of my code, than grab all my drives, make a copy, erase them, then return the drives. What you said is "theft is wrong" && "piracy is wrong" => "Piracy must be theft". The trouble is, you cannot apply the same concepts to physical and digital world. Once again, not arguing that pirating software or other content is good, just that it is not theft.

Secondly, and this is a point that I don't think is discussed much, piracy to me is an effect of market value. For example big music labels will argue that if I distribute a Britney Spears MP3 on a file sharing network, that they lose $0.99 * # of potential buyers. This is false. The market value of this piece of content is much lower. People would not pay for it if the only way to get it was through, say, iTunes. Basically, someone might want it for free, might consider if for cheap ($0.10/song), but not want it for the price set by the market.

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#68

Post by slurgfest »

jscheel wrote: post #58

It's amazing, and frankly stupid, how many people try to justify theft. Sorry guys, regardless of what utopian ideals of OSS you have, and I have them too, you must respect the creator's wishes. If they ask you to pay for the software, then you MUST pay for the software. Anything else is theft. Let's say you are a freelance developer. Do you think for one second that it would be ok for your clients to let you do all…

It's amazing, and frankly stupid, how quickly you slid from piracy to OSS.

OSS has nothing to do with piracy. If I licensed my project MIT, sharing it is not piracy. OSS platforms do not have thriving piracy ecosystems because there is plenty of OSS software for them. In my experience, people who believe in OSS are the most likely to champion using a legal OSS alternative to pirating some widely-used proprietary software.

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#69

Post by slurgfest »

shmerl wrote: post #9

Yes, this is a famous letter which can be considered a foundation of Microsoft's historic hostility to any open technologies.

Piracy is not the same as "open technologies" in any way. In fact, the latter prevents the former (if I settle on GIMP instead of pirating Photoshop...)

Re: "Most of you steal your software"

#70

Post by cavilling_elite »

IgorPartola wrote: post #67
TheCapn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all understand what is being discussed here. We don't need to argue semantics over what it means to obtain something you didn't pay for (but should have). It seems that the tech community stands adamantly behind the "copyright infringement isn't theft" mantra but in reality the moral crime is taking something you weren't entitled to. Our actions don't really seem to consider the state of the original product makin…

I do not advocate piracy, and do believe that people should be paid for their work. However, you are wrong. Theft means that the original owner no longer has the item stolen from them. Copying something from them most definitely leaves them with the original. That is one way in which piracy is not like theft. I would much rather someone download a copy of my code, than grab all my drives, make a copy, erase them, the…

The problem is the price is not set by the market, it is set by the record label and significant arm twisting. Support your favorite bands by sending them cheques if you obtain their album. The RIAA is the problem.

Also check out Band Camp for new unsigned artists. Great service and IMHO the future of the "record" industry.

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