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Speaking up

sazzy.co.uk

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Re: Speaking up

#21

Post by pja »

newhouseb wrote: post #18

Halfway through reading this article I had myself really wishing posts like these would just publicly out the perpetrator instead of referring to them anonymously - unfortunately as I finished the article I realized that she hadn't done so because the perpetrator was never found out. For the cases where there is no question who the perpetrator is - I wonder if it would be beneficial to encourage more public shaming?…

I believe that the people who act like this almost always act out in other ways: tell sexist jokes, make light of rape culture, all that stuff.

One way we can make a difference is to refuse to tolerate that kind of thing in our own circles of acquaintances, because otherwise those individuals will take our silence as implicit affirmation of their worldview. Sometimes it's hard to be "that guy", but if you're not prepared to do it, then you're one of the people that's enabling this kind of behaviour. By not speaking out you're telling these people that what they believe is OK: silence is complicity, like it or not.

Re: Speaking up

#23

Post by [deleted] »

h2s wrote: post #2

Are there any high profile women in this industry who haven't been treated like shit in some way such as this? What a nasty bunch of people we are. Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century?

[deleted]

Re: Speaking up

#24

Post by sdoering »

abcd_f wrote: post #16
sdoering wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are looking at a personal blog (at least, that is what it looks like me), that is also used as a personal site for speaking gigs (press images, bio, et al). You are not willing to follow the link to her agency, to look for a portfolio there, but you have the "right", quite passive-aggressively, to criticize her in a way, that makes her look not like the victim, she is in the told story, but that it is all her…

Jeez. If I am a victim now, then you are no lesser of a victim for being hurt by not being able to fully understand my comment of me not being a victim. Let's not go the soap opera way. She is a professional public speaker, not a web designer. Whatever she's gotta say, it serves to promote her brand. This is factored into her decision to post. It doesn't make what she has to say any less true, but it does make it far…

OK, the passive-aggressive accusation of your part, just pushed me over the edge (Your edit).

To you, sir, I have nothing more to say, but:

"Don't feed the trolls"

For everybody else, that should have been my answer:

Well, first, I am not hurt. I was cynically trying to expose your style of thinking to be exactly aligned with the mindset, that (imho) is the underlying reason, so many (or even just some) women feel treated like shit in this industry.

As I believe, real reasoning might be lost on people expressing their attitude the way you do, I was trying another route, employed by the medieval jesters, called irony. As your mindset really fits the dark ages better than the 21st century, that just seemed fitting.

I know, that, with going that route, I did nothing less then assuming a lot on your position - and maybe I really did wrong you, by assuming, that your passive-aggressive tone of writing was exactly that. Maybe I did you wrong, by totally misunderstanding your point (that I am not able to see, even after your reaction to my comment).

Soap-opera-way? I have really not idea, what you might mean by that.

If I understand you right, everybody, that ever had a professional gig in speaking, is not allowed to post a very terrible personal experience on her/his own blog, telling a story of how someone tried to destroy her reputation? Sorry, but that I really don't get.

Re: Speaking up

#25

Post by mootothemax »

h2s wrote: post #2

Are there any high profile women in this industry who haven't been treated like shit in some way such as this? What a nasty bunch of people we are. Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century?

Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century?

To paraphrase Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash, one problem is guys believing that they're too smart to be sexist.

I also believe that a lot of people involved can't handle the idea that they're being bullies, and so further attempt to rationalise their actions with terrible analogies and arguments that boil down to "I'm a geek - I'm incapable of oppressing someone!"

Re: Speaking up

#26

Post by thaumaturgy »

pja wrote: post #19
h2s wrote: post #2

Are there any high profile women in this industry who haven't been treated like shit in some way such as this? What a nasty bunch of people we are. Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century?

And this is why you need moderated communities, because otherwise the assholes will dominate the discourse in your chosen milieu and drive out anyone they deem unacceptable. Very often it's women. I don't know why but either there's a class of developers who feel personally threatened by women in their chosen profession, or it's personal: some individual has believed themselves to be entitled to that woman's attentio…

Regarding your second paragraph, I think it's primarily a clash of two situations: software development by its nature attracts men who are socially awkward, and the women that are attracted to software development tend not to be there for the attention.

Software development has a broader appeal now than it did twenty years ago, and in spite of the numerous cases like this one, there seems to still be a growing population of women in the community. (I hope that continues, we need all the talent available.) So, hopefully this will sort itself out in time.

In the meantime, I'm more intrigued by the idea of gated communities than I am of moderated communities. Moderation seems to require a lot of resources and lead to conflict. Gated (online) communities don't seem to have been tried as much, and I'm curious about whether or not a lot of social problems would simply solve themselves if not everyone were invited to participate.

Re: Speaking up

#27

Post by adrianshort »

abcd_f wrote: post #3

So apparently, she is a web designer (or a web design agency owner), but it takes an effort to find a link to an actual portfolio. There is the Resources page but it's full of her own photos from every angle. The About page is too full of important aspects of her professional background including how she takes her coffee (apparently 3rd most frequently asked question). I understand that she is the brand and she's pro…

Sexism in the tech business "overblown", says anonymous troll who struggles to use a web browser effectively.

Re: Speaking up

#28

Post by flexie »

abcd_f wrote: post #3

So apparently, she is a web designer (or a web design agency owner), but it takes an effort to find a link to an actual portfolio. There is the Resources page but it's full of her own photos from every angle. The About page is too full of important aspects of her professional background including how she takes her coffee (apparently 3rd most frequently asked question). I understand that she is the brand and she's pro…

Took me less than a minute to find this: http://www.youknowwhodesign.com/portfolio

Re: Speaking up

#29

Post by mtrimpe »

mootothemax wrote: post #25
h2s wrote: post #2

Are there any high profile women in this industry who haven't been treated like shit in some way such as this? What a nasty bunch of people we are. Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century?

Are we (developers) the douchey 80s guy of the 21st century? To paraphrase Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash, one problem is guys believing that they're too smart to be sexist. I also believe that a lot of people involved can't handle the idea that they're being bullies, and so further attempt to rationalise their actions with terrible analogies and arguments that boil down to "I'm a geek - I'm incapable of oppressing som…

I think to a large degree it's also about not understanding group dynamics. Let's say that:

35% or so of geeks are closet sexists in reform: aware that their belief systems are wrong / socially unacceptable and trying to change.

5% or so aren't sexists but misogynists: men who truly feel wronged by women and wish to retaliate.

60% are perfectly stand-up men who wouldn't do a bit of harm

Now the trick is that whenever the sexist and misogynists form a group where they have a significant majority, the closet sexists will give the misogynists a platform to damage women.

Meanwhile the other 60% sees nothing but 95% of perfectly respectful men who would do no harm against women and can't even imagine something like that happening in their company.

Re: Speaking up

#30

Post by pja »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #26
pja wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is why you need moderated communities, because otherwise the assholes will dominate the discourse in your chosen milieu and drive out anyone they deem unacceptable. Very often it's women. I don't know why but either there's a class of developers who feel personally threatened by women in their chosen profession, or it's personal: some individual has believed themselves to be entitled to that woman's attentio…

Regarding your second paragraph, I think it's primarily a clash of two situations: software development by its nature attracts men who are socially awkward, and the women that are attracted to software development tend not to be there for the attention. Software development has a broader appeal now than it did twenty years ago, and in spite of the numerous cases like this one, there seems to still be a growing popula…

I doubt women are generally in professional jobs "for the attention" & I don't think this kind of behaviour is limited to men who are socially awkward unfortunately.

Gated communities still need moderation: someone has to decide whether or not to kick people out if they behave badly!

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