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Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#71
post #61
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because Capitalism is a system that has put millions/billions of people out of misery and starvation throughout the world And meanwhile, it has systematized the misery and starvation of millions and billions of people itself, while – cruelly – being so opportunistic, so seemingly advantageous to the resourceful individual, that it teaches us to despise those who suffer, to see them as somehow beneath us. The contem…

> Your abrupt dismissal of that possibility doesn't make it go away; it just makes you seem like you don't know what you're talking about. Yet you write this on a computer, a smartphone or a tablet, which has been provided to you at a very low, affordable price thanks to this capitalistic model you seem to despise. And you are the one who is accusing me of not knowing what I am talking about.

Yeah, see, this is the sort of argument that even freshmen College Democrats think isn't worth arguing.

Yeah, my computer's a result of that capitalistic model. That computer was made in a factory that attracted a lot of controversy for having working conditions so poor that employees literally killed themselves. That factory is the result of a line of thinking that dates back to Henry Ford, which is: let's find exactly the price that we can pay people to get them doing monotonous, soul-deadening work for eight to sixteen hours a day without them walking out. And the more these factories become the norm, the less we'll have to pay, because the fewer other places they can go.

What amuses me about this is that I am not a radical critic of capitalism. As far as people who think capitalism's less than perfect goes, I am so far along being okay with capitalism that my radical friends make fun of me for it. Your treating me like I'm some idiot who doesn't know the first thing about history suggests you haven't had many conversations about this, because trust me, nothing I'm saying is controversial in the least.

The way I see it, capitalism is a very sensible model for creating new things, for innovating, for encouraging systematic change in the directions of optimization and consumer satisfaction. But this model is only as effective, basically, as the freedoms which you're given within it – same as any system, right? In capitalism, the biggest threat is basically that those with the means of production and wealth hold all the reins, and they can inflict horrible suffering upon lots of people without punishment. I'm not just talking about paying people cruel wages to work at factories – I'm talking TV networks producing terrible bottom-of-the-rung shows, and opposing competition from cable networks who'd like to offer quality programming. Or a music industry that is so determined to squeeze as much money as possible out of super-celebrity bands that it's hurt the ability of smaller, local bands to support themselves. The scale at which mass production operates is literally inhuman: that is, it is so large that we are mentally incapable of processing it without a whole lot of effort. And because of that, it's led to a lot of nastiness that's hurt a bunch of people, not even because the people inflicting the pain are evil, but because they can't comprehend the extent of their actions. And, of course, they have incentives to look only at the good their actions create, and not at all at the bad – much like you with your silly "YOU USE COMPUTERS TOO" argument.

Now, the reason I'm not a radical anarchist like some of my friends is that I feel people attempting to revise capitalism can still achieve something from within the system. I also think that capitalism is better enough than the old alternatives that its shittiness can be, not forgiven, but understood within the greater historical context. My radical friends would disagree with this: they'd argue that enough freedom was lost in the 20th century that we're worse off now than ever before. I suspect they're wrong. They'd also argue that capitalism cannot be fixed without outright revolution – I disagree with that too. But I think it's pretty obvious that "capitalism unto itself" is an outdated economic model with some blatant flaws, and that we'll see the world slowly adopting more humane systems. And again, this is not a controversial thought except among those who've rationalized the deaths and sufferings of all the people who go into making this comfortable system for we lucky few.

I'm conflicted about how stuck I am with the system that currently exists, about how little alternative I have. I hope that tech manufacturers figure out a way to offer me good products with much less human suffering behind their manufacturing; I'd pay a premium for that, in fact. And capitalism allows for that too, so I can criticize the state of our capitalist world today without rejecting capitalism outright and going to live in the woods. I like civilization. I just happen to think that capitalism is not quite so civilized as you'd like to believe it is for convenience's sake.

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#72
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Song of Solomon and Ecclesiastes are the shit, though. But honestly, yeah, the Bible is the poorest written fiction I've ever not finished reading. It's not even worth the paper as a religious reference, surprisingly. Maybe reading something like Norman Cohn's "The Pursuit of the Millenium" would be more useful for someone wanting to understand (more deeper) christianity, though it's quite a heavyweight. And I un…

If you're going to read the Bible for pure enjoyment, please avoid the King James. Versions exist which are indeed enjoyable to read, yet faithful enough to the original texts that you get something interesting out of them. I think my favorite anecdote about the importance of translation comes from Jack Miles and is about the Book of Job. Translated the King James way, at the end of Job God reveals himself and Job sa…

Really? The King James Version of the Bible has the most beautiful language of the batch and will help you understand much about modern literature. Compare that to something like the somewhat-more-accurate but dry-as-dust New Revised Standard Version, or the informal horrorshow of things like The Message - neither of which has anything like your Jack Miles anecdote. What version would you recommend?

I'm a little biased here, but if you want to explore the religious content of the Bible, just chuck out the Bible and go to Jewish commentaries on the Torah and Tanakh. Plaut's 'The Torah: A Modern Commentary' and Lieber's 'Etz Hayim' are good places to start.

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#73
post #20

Agree with other comments here. I've flipped through Wealth of Nations, Origin of Species and others and couldn't keep my focus tethered down. So let me ask you this: What are the top 10 essential reads of today for helping one develop a critical mind and a better understanding of the world around them?

Eric Hoffer - The True Believer. Why people are seduced by mass movements, whether political or religious.

V.S. Naipaul - Among the Believers. A collection of vignettes about Islam in non-Arab countries.

Reza Aslan - No God But God, Beyond Fundamentalism. A non boring history of Islam. An explanation of the difference between jihadic and nationalistic movements in Islam.

Deer Hunting With Jesus - Joe Bageant. Why poor white Americans vote Republican.

Robert D. Kaplan - Imperial Grunts, Hog Pilots, Monsoon, Revenge of Geography. First two are a look into the current state of deployed US Military. Monsoon is about the importance of the Indian Ocean area, and Revenge of Geography is about the importance of geography in shaping geopolitics.

John McPhee - Annals of the Former World. History of North America from a geological perspective.

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#74
post #20

Agree with other comments here. I've flipped through Wealth of Nations, Origin of Species and others and couldn't keep my focus tethered down. So let me ask you this: What are the top 10 essential reads of today for helping one develop a critical mind and a better understanding of the world around them?

This thread is filled with the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy and it's sad, so I can see where your question is coming from. I personally like to read books from people who predicted things before they happened and try to understand their mindset. Understanding finance... One may not like its writing style but Nicolas Nassim Taleb's "The Black Swan" helped me understand how finance was indeed the crumbs of cap…

You say his predictions were "way to precise to be sheer luck", then point out he got some major points incorrect. It could still be a lucky prediction.

And the $1 trillion coin was a legal hack, nothing more.

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#75

Basically he's saying that everyone should have a history minor.

The downvoting is suprising.

I have a history degree and that list more or less represents some of the required reading for an undergraduate history program.

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#76
post #12

I've read some of those books cover to cover (Art of War, the Prince) & other's I've glazed over because they were, well, boring & laborious & I don't believe anybody should be recommending them as things to read for enjoyment (Origin of the Species or The Bible, for instance). So here's my list of 8 for things that you'll probably never finish, but extract huge value from anyway. -Richard Feynman Lectures on Physics…

"For those that deny the possibility of spiritual experience within a naturalistic world view. A lot of atheism that is public today misses empathy with religious experience." Aldous Huxley, "The doors of perception". Warning: it's debunking the experience. Just as modern science starts to explain (and reproduce) why/how people are seeing "the light at the end of a dark tunnel" when they have near-death experience. L…

> I'm more of a militant agnostic in the: "I don't know, and you don't either" style ; )

What an odd statement. Confidence levels are nearly never 100%. Taking the position that because one can never make a 100% claim, that all possibilities are of equal probability - that's sort of a useless position to have as it can apply to nearly any statement. See also: Russell's teapot, invisible pink unicorns.

1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russells_teapot 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#77
post #65
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because Capitalism is a system that has put millions/billions of people out of misery and starvation throughout the world And meanwhile, it has systematized the misery and starvation of millions and billions of people itself, while – cruelly – being so opportunistic, so seemingly advantageous to the resourceful individual, that it teaches us to despise those who suffer, to see them as somehow beneath us. The contem…

> that it teaches us to despise those who suffer, to see them as somehow beneath us. The contempt that was once the property of those few at the very, very top has become democratized, so that we may all join in in feeling it. To me, economics is purely a system of wealth creation and the regulation, or lack there of, of that wealth. I see it as an amoral system. I don't see a society of capitalism and a society of e…

Unfortunately, our economy influences our culture, media, technology, and celebrity. The book Monoculture: How One Story is Changing Everything, published 2011, makes the argument that economy is the underlying force that defines everything else. It affects how our media reports stories, for instance, which creates openings for entrepreneurs who want to manipulate that system for their own profit, which in turn has made America's political process into a carnival sideshow, which discourages Americans from paying attention and makes the problem even worse. It also gives business owners an incentive to pay their employees as little as possible, and to oppose any sort of regulation that would force them to give employees any kind of benefits which would cost them time and money.

I wish I could say that technology start-ups are exempt from this, that we enlightened bunch are nice enough and smart enough that we do capitalism right, and there are a bunch of tech companies that really do some great things for employees and charity and that try to minimize suffering. Unfortunately, even among start-ups you have some instances of awful jackassery, and even among the tech legends there is some less-than-good stuff happening. Amazon in particular has notoriously bad warehouse policies, and I've heard reports that even the higher-up employees are routinely treated like shit. There is a culture wherein we expect start-up people to undergo excruciating hours and a lot of stress for even the hope of success, and while I understand why that culture exists, I also think it's not especially healthy that we consider this process to be the norm. There are some people who truly do thrive under such pressure, but there are plenty others who are smart and hard-working and have good ideas who are either crushed by that process, or who are too intimidated by it to try working within it, and that's less than good.

Some things capitalism does are great, and I suspect that they'll remain great as we slowly reform society. But the system as-is is too problematic in too many ways for me to excuse them all, or to forgive capitalism's flaws which allowed this.

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a collection of writings containing some of the oldest recorded human stories, poetry and philosophy, law, history, and myth. Reading it is no more a waste of time than reading the Iliad or Plato.

The Iliad is both entertaining and well written, while Plato is intellectually stimulating where he's not just wrong. The Bible is not remotely as well written as the Iliad, nor is it comparable as a work of philosophy to Plato.

>The Bible is not remotely as well written as the Iliad, nor is it comparable as a work of philosophy to Plato.

Tens of Thousands of top notch literary critics, philosophers and intellectuals beg to differ...

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For those that deny the possibility of spiritual experience within a naturalistic world view. A lot of atheism that is public today misses empathy with religious experience." Aldous Huxley, "The doors of perception". Warning: it's debunking the experience. Just as modern science starts to explain (and reproduce) why/how people are seeing "the light at the end of a dark tunnel" when they have near-death experience. L…

> I'm more of a militant agnostic in the: "I don't know, and you don't either" style ; ) What an odd statement. Confidence levels are nearly never 100%. Taking the position that because one can never make a 100% claim, that all possibilities are of equal probability - that's sort of a useless position to have as it can apply to nearly any statement. See also: Russell's teapot, invisible pink unicorns. 1: http://en.wi…

I take the word "atheist" at literal face value. I call myself an atheist because I am "a" == "not" a "theist" == "religious adherent". Agnostics are also in that category.

The squabbling about non-theistic definitions is stupidly pointless. Come on guys, we're all not theists here!

Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson’s Eight Books Everyone Should Read

#80
post #12

I've read some of those books cover to cover (Art of War, the Prince) & other's I've glazed over because they were, well, boring & laborious & I don't believe anybody should be recommending them as things to read for enjoyment (Origin of the Species or The Bible, for instance). So here's my list of 8 for things that you'll probably never finish, but extract huge value from anyway. -Richard Feynman Lectures on Physics…

The Bible, boring? I mean, it drones on with boring passages sometimes, but the stories are far from boring. I'd say terrifying, sickening, tragic at times. I'll bump your Feynman Lectures (watch the videos), and add everything else (his books). Even laypersons can understand him. Feynman wrote some lectures on computation too which has some gems in it. http://books.google.com/books/about/Feynman_Lectures_On_Comp...…

The "x begat y, and y begat z" chronologies that go on for hundreds of years can get pretty tedious.

The sub-books that involve lists of Jewish laws can be a little dull too, though some of the laws I'll admit are pretty funny.

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