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Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

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Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#41

Post by tehwalrus »

aston wrote: post #3

Near the bottom of this article is an interesting post mortem of RethinkDB's transparent salary policy. When it was posted years ago [1] folks here took pretty kindly to it, though some were skeptical [2]. I'm kinda disappointed (who doesn't like to know?) but also not very surprised that it didn't work out. Negotiation doesn't work super well if the other players have complete information about your strategy. [1] ht…

"Negotiation doesn't work super well if the other players have complete information about your strategy."

Economist's point: perfect markets don't work if anyone has restricted information. Employees can't sell their labour at the market rate if they can't see every other salary in the economy... :)

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#43

Post by sp332 »

dawidw wrote: post #31
Jack000 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. I've never felt any reservation in talking about my income, except to coworkers. I just feel like it invites resentment if mine happened to be higher, even if on a sub-conscious level.

There's such saying: "Gentlemen don't talk about money..."

That saying is so old, it ends "... and women don't touch it."

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#44

Post by notahacker »

ryanmolden wrote: post #15
vacri wrote: post #12

I once did a short stint at a phone survey company that specialised in health and social welfare surveys. I wasn't on this particular survey crew, but I remember a colleague telling me that it was strange - a stranger rings up and with your consent conducts a 20-minute anonymous survery on the subject of abuse, sexual or otherwise, that the respondant suffered as a child. It was a delicate survey and required a fair…

I think our culture (well, American, capitalist society is all I can really comment on) has a very strong implied link between income and worth/value. We have magazines that routinely have lists of the highest paid / richest people. People give incredible leeway to highly paid execs, as if due to the number of zeros on their paycheck they clearly have to be right/smart. There are sayings like "that decision was made…

I think the cultural thing is actually the reverse: Westerners including Anglo-Americans usually don't want to discuss money because they see it as a proxy for social hierarchies they profess disbelief in and orthogonal to self-worth.

On the other hand, in countries like India where salary is usually the third thing a complete stranger asks you about have a strong sense of social hierarchy and see frank discussion of income differences as an important part of establishing where they sit in it (and their potential for moving up). Meanwhile, I wasn't even mildly curious about how much they earned relative to me and their peers because it wasn't going to affect my perception of the conversation in the slightest, but was a little embarrassed that I could afford to spend months travelling in their country without having to do much to earn the privilege and a salary I'd been unhappy with was usually a large multiple of theirs.

I always viewed the "that decision was made above my paygrade" as mildly sarcastic in its implications.

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#45

Post by the1 »

mietek wrote: post #21
the1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

asking what you make is like asking how often you get laid. and whom.

> asking what you make is like asking how often you get laid. and whom. Yes, as long as you consider your career to be an extension of your penis. This does seem to be a popular point of view in English-speaking countries.

no, your career path can be public unless you're James Bourne.

Special agents can still share what they do with their co-workers. But there are certain risks such as your co-worker being a spy.

And, we build our ego around our salary and bonuses. Exposing those numbers is quite embarrassing. And, knowing my salary is none of your business. You can tell me yours, I'd retweet it.

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#46

Post by kmt »

coffeemug wrote: post #14
aston wrote: post #3

Near the bottom of this article is an interesting post mortem of RethinkDB's transparent salary policy. When it was posted years ago [1] folks here took pretty kindly to it, though some were skeptical [2]. I'm kinda disappointed (who doesn't like to know?) but also not very surprised that it didn't work out. Negotiation doesn't work super well if the other players have complete information about your strategy. [1] ht…

Hey, I'm slava @ rethink. If you have questions about how things went, I'm happy to answer.

I take it you mean publicly. Really like to elaborate on this topic. How did things go?

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#47

Post by temphn »

coffeemug wrote: post #14
aston wrote: post #3

Near the bottom of this article is an interesting post mortem of RethinkDB's transparent salary policy. When it was posted years ago [1] folks here took pretty kindly to it, though some were skeptical [2]. I'm kinda disappointed (who doesn't like to know?) but also not very surprised that it didn't work out. Negotiation doesn't work super well if the other players have complete information about your strategy. [1] ht…

Hey, I'm slava @ rethink. If you have questions about how things went, I'm happy to answer.

What if you had front loaded the open salary information in the hiring process? Something like, "We have a no-haggle policy on engineering roles. In order to streamline negotiations, please only apply for this job if you are comfortable with X starting salary and Y options. We are very fair and promotions are rapid (see our comp ladders here), but want people to join who share our sense of efficiency."

Law firms manage to pull this off with a standard $160k base, and probably something similar works in other spaces?

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#48

Post by dawidw »

sp332 wrote: post #43
dawidw wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's such saying: "Gentlemen don't talk about money..."

That saying is so old, it ends "... and women don't touch it."

Probably from that times of James Bond:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRaDQZGFdBs

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#49

Post by grecy »

dsymonds wrote: post #10
grecy wrote: post #7

I've always felt uncomfortable about how employees are not supposed to talk to each other about their salaries. To me, it reeks of manipulation feels just like saying to a child "Here's some candy, but you have to promise not to tell anyone I gave it to you, OK" ugh.

There's nothing stopping you from talking to other employees about salaries. It's a myth that is propagated by companies in order to keep you in the dark about what they are paying other people, to deprive you of information, and to keep you at a disadvantage in any negotiation.

I expect serious repercussions if I was to do so.

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#50

Post by rorrr »

InAnEmergency wrote: post #26
jackowayed wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it's as insane as you think. First, interns at big-name tech companies are highly overpaid for the work the company gets now; it's seen more as a hiring cost than a salary. The company pays ~$50k (~20k is three month's salary; add in housing stipend, taxes, and overhead) per intern in the hopes that a decent proportion of them will be back. Those that are back are solid engineers that are known quantitie…

Yep, I was hired by a company where I did an internship and was actually paid slightly less as a full-time employee than as an intern (more benefits, though). As an intern I made $40/hr, hired full-time at $80k/yr.

$40/hr is a pretty ridiculous salary for an intern, good for you, man. Maybe you, personally, were worth that much, but on average, it's at least double of what the companies should be paying to interns. Heck, $15/hr should be fine.
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