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We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

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Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#91

Post by yummyfajitas »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #63
alan_cx wrote: post #59

I am said to suffer depression myself, which BTW I would deny as I would say its "realism", but I really have an issue with it being described as an "illness". It seems to be that this definition is more about giving depression PR parity with actual illnesses, rather than a correct label. Its like the public will accept an "illness" as real, but a psychological issues as not real. There for making the public see depr…

This is wrong, wrong, wrong. Sometimes people get down or get "the blues" but this is something very much different from major clinical depression. Depression has many aspects but one of the most important is a chemical imbalance in the brain. It's not just a feeling or an emotion, it's a fundamental change to the way your brain works. And episodes of major depression can last for years, even decades.

Depression has many aspects but one of the most important is a chemical imbalance in the brain.

If this is the case, there should be a chemical test to determine whether a person suffers from it. Does such a test exist? I'm unaware of it, but I'd love to read more.

(I'm not asking if it's clinically usable, but merely whether the specific chemicals and levels are known. If they are not known, then "chemical imbalance" is merely a hypothesis.)

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#92

Post by DanBC »

Buzaga wrote: post #81
DanBC wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are speaking to someone who claims that psychiatrists are responsible for the holocaust, pearl harbour, etc etc.

straw-man, ad hominem One thing is clear to me, discussing psychiatry is already a MAJOR TABOO... e.g.: in the article the dude says how he "thinks it has something to do with chemistry... and stuff" clearly in a not-so-scientific reasoning(not that all must be) but just pointing out this sort of questionings leads to major downvoting

Can you not see that there is a huge difference between "questioning the effectiveness of psychiatry" and "blaming psychiatry for the holocaust"?

I'm more than happy to ignore people who use the propaganda from a cult where anything from psychiatry is ignored.

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#93

Post by gosu »

austenallred wrote: post #23

Thank you, Mark, for writing this. I have lost three close friends in the past three months to depression. Their deaths were so similar it was shocking; they were all among the most brilliant people I had known, and all had been suffering from depression almost their entire lives. At the funeral of the one who was closest to me, another girl told a story of how on one day when his depression was particularly bad, he…

>no matter what it says there are many people who love you

I hear this platitude all the time and I don't think that it's constructive. Disconnectedness and depression go hand in hand, in my experience. You may be blessed to have many people who love you, but a decent portion of the human population objectively doesn't, and can recognize it. So saying such a thing to a depressed person seems to run a high risk of rubbing their loneliness in their face.

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#94

Post by Chattered »

austenallred wrote: post #23

Thank you, Mark, for writing this. I have lost three close friends in the past three months to depression. Their deaths were so similar it was shocking; they were all among the most brilliant people I had known, and all had been suffering from depression almost their entire lives. At the funeral of the one who was closest to me, another girl told a story of how on one day when his depression was particularly bad, he…

> Sorry for getting so personal, but I simply can't take any of the comments that say "just get over it." Depression is as real and as disabling as being paralyzed; it may not happen to everyone, but to say things like, "You need to be stronger" are no more appropriate to the depressed than they are to the paralyzed.

The difference is that it is not always possible to talk someone out of paralysis, but I'd like to think it is possible to talk some people out of depression. So I'd prefer to think of calls to "be stronger" as an attempt at remedying someone's health problems, and not a judgement on their character.

I'll back right off claiming that "be stronger" is an effective remedy, of course.

In terms of arguing for a more sensitive language, there is a call (citation needed) to avoid the phrase "commit suicide" which implies that suicide is still a crime that one "commits."

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#95

Post by dschiptsov »

imperio59 wrote: post #5
rgrieselhuber wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a highly uninformed opinion.

I think it's actually highly well informed, Psychiatrists themselves admit there's nothing scientific about the whole "brain chemistry imbalance" bullshit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzdu3WQyIZg&list=PLFD5944...

There is also point, cross-cultural. Most Asian cultures which are build around communities, instead of individualistic competition have orders of magnitude less such "deceases", which means it is learned behavior, reaction to the environment, which means it could be altered by changing the habits. And environment, is, of course, a product of actions of each individual member.

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#96

Post by DanBC »

Tichy wrote: post #89
DanBC wrote: post #10

Already this thread has replies that are trotting out the usual "depression is just sadness" or "CBT is nonsense". The UK NHS National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence ( http://www.nice.org.uk/ ) gathers evidence of cost effectiveness (using quality adjusted life years) for various treatments. They are pretty clear - CBT is excellent for mild depression; CBT and medication combined is more effective than…

I think if you go along that line of argumentation, it would be nice to link to actual articles and studies, rather than the homepage of some organization. Otherwise it is just a "call to authority", and we know those were never wrong in the course of history, right? For starters, what do they even measure to estimate effectiveness? Suicide rates? Happyness induced from a questionaire? Brainwaves? Hormone levels? Wha…

> it would be nice to link to actual articles and studies, rather than the homepage of some organization.

These organisations link to their papers, and to the original studies.

> What does effective even mean? Does it mean the patient did not induce further costs for the health industry? It could mean all sorts of things. For example chaining a patient to a bed could also be very effective in preventing suicide. So if you measure "suicides prevented", perhaps chaining people to beds is the best course of action?

I knew many questions would be asked, but I didn't know what those questions would be. Rather than try to predict which questions would be asked I just link to the home pages so that you can do your own research.

After all, if you're sceptical (not a bad thing) of me you should assume that I'll cherry pick the research that I show you.

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#97

Post by DanBC »

lhnz wrote: post #58

A lot of uniformed people in this thread. You can't generalise as much as you all do. You have to understand that people experience life in very different ways. I have experienced depression [0] but I can't speak for anybody else other than to say I know it's hard and keep on . The real problem with depression is that everybody wants to wash their hands of it. "There are doctors that we can pass these sick people to.…

I didn't downvote you.

> Go for CBT and you'll find it largely amounts to filling out forms on your mental state with tickboxes that don't really apply to you, while somebody tries to find out ways that your thinking is twisted.

This is a poor version of CBT. Any practitioner providing CBT like this is doing it wrong.

CBT is not about telling you that you are wrong or that your thinking is twisted. CBT is about exploring with you what your thinking is; what's happening to you with those thoughts; how strongly you feel those thoughts and emotions. CBT is about helping you understand why you feel the things that you feel, and why you think the things you think.

There can be a bit of writing when you begin - some people find it useful to have the process down in a concrete form. There doesn't have to be writing. And checking boxes is not a good approach.

Medication works for some people. But the serotonin hypothesis is controversial.

> Do you want to medicate the hell out of the high-functioning, positive guy that wants to change the world

(I didn't view the YouTube)

Medication can have side effects, and sometimes they're not very nice. But most SSRIs don't have the kind of effects that people would describe as "medicate the hell out of".

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#98

Post by DanBC »

Chattered wrote: post #94
austenallred wrote: post #23

Thank you, Mark, for writing this. I have lost three close friends in the past three months to depression. Their deaths were so similar it was shocking; they were all among the most brilliant people I had known, and all had been suffering from depression almost their entire lives. At the funeral of the one who was closest to me, another girl told a story of how on one day when his depression was particularly bad, he…

> Sorry for getting so personal, but I simply can't take any of the comments that say "just get over it." Depression is as real and as disabling as being paralyzed; it may not happen to everyone, but to say things like, "You need to be stronger" are no more appropriate to the depressed than they are to the paralyzed. The difference is that it is not always possible to talk someone out of paralysis, but I'd like to th…

I avoid the term "commit suicide" because of the link to sins and crime. People attempt suicide, or they complete suicide.

> but I'd like to think it is possible to talk some people out of depression.

Here's the thing: It is possible to talk someone out of depression. But that talk is a carefully crafted therapeutic talk, applied by an experienced trained therapist.

Talking to someone without knowing what you're doing probably isn't going to be a long term help. And it might even be harmful.

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#99

Post by elorant »

A few years back when I quit smoking I spent two weeks with withdrawal symptoms the biggest one been depression. It hit me so harsh that I felt like I lost the earth under my feet. I’ve never felt anything similar and I can honestly say it was by far the worst period of my life. You wake up and you just don’t have the courage to do anything. Every single insecurity I had surfaced during those two weeks multiplied by ten.

The odd thing is that those two weeks were the most socializing ones I’ve ever spent. I felt like I wanted to be with other people 24/7 although it didn’t make any difference to my condition. And this imho is the biggest problem with depression, there are no visible signs that someone suffers from it. So if you don’t know if someone has it how can you help them.

Fortunately for me this hell lasted only a couple of weeks, until my body cope up with the lack of nicotine. I don’t know how I would manage to live with something like that for years or even decades. I have the outmost respect and sympathy for the ones living with depression.

Without trying to be smart ass I have the feeling that depression is a fundamental problem of lifestyle standards. The majority of our insecurities are imposed on us by some wicked version of how life should be. So instead of enjoying the little moments of happiness we tend to believe that happiness is a constant situation which happens to be out of our grasp and thus we hammer ourselves with the inability to get there. And then you end up with a dozen insecurities and everything seems so vain.

Re: We Need to Have Sympathy for Those With Depression. It is an Illness

#100

Post by chris_wot »

atsaloli wrote: post #84
chris_wot wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see external citations for the list of claimed achievements on that second page. To balance out your links and snippets, here's the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_Commission_on_Human_Ri...

Here is one for you: "In 1995 CCHR published the acclaimed book Psychiatrists: The Men Behind Hitler." http://www.amazon.com/Psychiatrists-Behind-Hitler-Thomas-Rod... And another one: "In 1999, members of the Council of Europe issued a resolution that recognized psychiatrists as the architects of the ethnic cleansing and encouraged Council members to 'study the material that has been put together and researched by th…

Actually, the second citation you reference asserts that two psychiatrists participated in and coordinated ethnic cleansing, implying that psychiatry was the root cause. It states that eugenics is particularly stupid and unjust (note that this is not a theory recognized in psychiatry) and it was issued as a resolution made by merely three members. In other words, they lobbied a few European politicians into making a statement about facts not necessarily in evidence, in a very limited form to show tenuous conclusions not backed up by any research whatsoever.

Awesome.

As for the book, you're using the peacock term "acclaimed" and cited an Amazon product page. Not what I'd call a great citation.

This is the problem, of course, with citations. It exposes the hollowness of ridiculous arguments by allowing all to see exactly the underpinning assumptions behind statements and assertions.

This is why I invented [citation needed]. I appreciate you reminding me why I did so.

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