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Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

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Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#31

Post by dawidw »

Jack000 wrote: post #18
mc32 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I would not be comfortable talking about my salary with most friends/family. In my family, it was always taboo to talk about money --my father hardly ever discussed money with friends (that I recall). So it was instilled in me that "money-talk" was somewhat "vulgar". To this day, I can only guess my siblings' fiscal positions. On the other hand, when I lived in the East (Asia), people there openly talked about money…

That's interesting. I've never felt any reservation in talking about my income, except to coworkers. I just feel like it invites resentment if mine happened to be higher, even if on a sub-conscious level.

There's such saying: "Gentlemen don't talk about money..."

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#32

Post by Nursie »

dsymonds wrote: post #10
grecy wrote: post #7

I've always felt uncomfortable about how employees are not supposed to talk to each other about their salaries. To me, it reeks of manipulation feels just like saying to a child "Here's some candy, but you have to promise not to tell anyone I gave it to you, OK" ugh.

There's nothing stopping you from talking to other employees about salaries. It's a myth that is propagated by companies in order to keep you in the dark about what they are paying other people, to deprive you of information, and to keep you at a disadvantage in any negotiation.

It's not just a myth, it can make people jealous of each other or cause a variety of tensions. I don't talk to my friends who work for charities about how much I earn, nor do I want to talk to the couple of people I know who are in finance about what they bring in.

Of course it also helps the company get an unfair advantage in negotiations, but it does have a social purpose too.

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#33

Post by Paul_S »

zuppy wrote: post #27
eshvk wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, it is very much a western thing. I have a lot of Indian friends and they happily trade salary information amongst each other. This reduces any informational asymmetry that exists in such situations.

I don't know if it's only a western thing. I'm in Eastern Europe and we still consider this subject a taboo (at least in IT). edit: To be more clear, you can talk about it with friends but not with your colleagues.

It varies by country/culture. In some cultures people are just terribly insecure and think that their salary defines their worth.

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#34

Post by Paul_S »

dawidw wrote: post #30
zuppy wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if it's only a western thing. I'm in Eastern Europe and we still consider this subject a taboo (at least in IT). edit: To be more clear, you can talk about it with friends but not with your colleagues.

It's not a taboo thing. In my contracts I've had always clause that all the information are confidential, including salary amount. And I can be sued by company if I break the agreement.

How can such a thing be legally binding. Did you tell your wife? Can they sue for that? What if you're not married to your partner? Your bank and every person who has seen your bank statement (a lot of people) knows what you're earning. Can they sue for that?

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#35

Post by dawidw »

Paul_S wrote: post #34
dawidw wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a taboo thing. In my contracts I've had always clause that all the information are confidential, including salary amount. And I can be sued by company if I break the agreement.

How can such a thing be legally binding. Did you tell your wife? Can they sue for that? What if you're not married to your partner? Your bank and every person who has seen your bank statement (a lot of people) knows what you're earning. Can they sue for that?

It's allowed to say that to your spouse. I think the regulation is just to prevent from publishing on web page or sending email with your real documents. If there is leak from the bank, the bank is responsible. In practice you talk about your salaries but in unofficial way, with a beer in a pub, but you never show the official contract.

The other interesting thing is clause about installing not approved application on your laptop. Everybody does it - your favourite editor, messenger, file manager etc. But when they want to fire you, they say that you've broken the rule and you're going to be sued unless you agree to leave company immediately without any punishment.

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#36

Post by petercooper »

ryanmolden wrote: post #15
vacri wrote: post #12

I once did a short stint at a phone survey company that specialised in health and social welfare surveys. I wasn't on this particular survey crew, but I remember a colleague telling me that it was strange - a stranger rings up and with your consent conducts a 20-minute anonymous survery on the subject of abuse, sexual or otherwise, that the respondant suffered as a child. It was a delicate survey and required a fair…

I think our culture (well, American, capitalist society is all I can really comment on) has a very strong implied link between income and worth/value. We have magazines that routinely have lists of the highest paid / richest people. People give incredible leeway to highly paid execs, as if due to the number of zeros on their paycheck they clearly have to be right/smart. There are sayings like "that decision was made…

I would not be comfortable talking about my salary with most friends/family.

My wife doesn't even have any idea of what I make ;-)

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#37

Post by thisone »

lemming wrote: post #11

In my last job I was in a position where I got to see all the salary wrangling that goes on behind the scenes, and it was pretty awful. You get people with power dishing out preferential treatment to their mates, you get situations that are incredibly unfair but for whatever reason can't be easily resolved, and you get a lot of gossiping and speculation that is wildly unproductive for a company. I've never worked any…

I've worked for a large company where if you know someone's band (and you generally know that just because you do, not by asking about) and how long someone has been there, you know within about a grand, how much they get paid.

I now work for a place where I'm told to never talk about my salary, yet 5 members of the (very small) company were invited into my salary review.

I often think that the more they stress to not talk about it, the more likely it is I'm underpaid compared to my coworkers.

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#38

Post by jackowayed »

onemorepassword wrote: post #29
Nate75Sanders wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the first is exactly what managers want -- engineers who have no idea, whatsoever, what they're worth.

Quite the contrary. If an engineer asks for considerably less than they're worth, that goes into the "may be out of touch with his profession" column. With the exception of starters and a few semi-autistic outliers, engineers that have no idea what they're worth generally aren't the best of engineers. Not asking for it however is a different matter.

That's just not true. Many, many engineers severely undervalue themselves for a variety of reasons. For some, underconfidence. Even for those that are confident in themselves, for many there's a fairness issue. ("Do I really need more than 100K?") Also, if they're in one underpaid job, the anchoring effect is pretty strong. I know someone who was in DC for People are socialized to try to make others happy, not inconvenience someone by asking for more than they feel is necessary and fair, etc. This does not speak to their competence, though it might also mean that they're less effective at making you realize how competent they are once you hire them (because they're also the type of people who don't flash all of their accomplishments in front of you).

Women also tend to fall into this even moreso because of gender socialization.

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#39

Post by newman314 »

GIFtheory wrote: post #5

This is not too uncommon for government employees, including (e.g.) professors, coaches, doctors at state schools. For example, I had no idea top surgeons raked in that kind of dough. Damn. http://www.sacbee.com/statepay/

If you want to be pissed, look up troopers. Last I looked, there were a whole bunch making over $200k.

Re: Transparency at the Office: Psst...This Is What Your Co-Worker Is Paid

#40

Post by nopassrecover »

dsymonds wrote: post #10
grecy wrote: post #7

I've always felt uncomfortable about how employees are not supposed to talk to each other about their salaries. To me, it reeks of manipulation feels just like saying to a child "Here's some candy, but you have to promise not to tell anyone I gave it to you, OK" ugh.

There's nothing stopping you from talking to other employees about salaries. It's a myth that is propagated by companies in order to keep you in the dark about what they are paying other people, to deprive you of information, and to keep you at a disadvantage in any negotiation.

Nearly every contract I've had (in Australia) prohibits discussion of the salary. Not sure on enforceability.
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