Yale Computer Science Dept overworked, understaffed • Hacker News Board

Re: Yale Computer Science Dept overworked, understaffed

#41

Post by gklitt » Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 6:58 AM UTC

wmf wrote: post #24

gklitt wrote: post #14

I'm a CS major at Yale right now. In my opinion, this whole issue has arisen because there is confusion about what "computer science" should be at a university. Theoretical computer science that professors do is a world away from the casual HTML/CSS development that many non-CS-majors want to dabble in after watching The Social Network. I think an excellent university should have instruction in both, and enough profe…

So if enrollment for hard CS is off the charts and you don't have enough people to teach it... create more light CS classes to encourage broader enrollment?

Sorry, I realize my comment may have been a bit unclear.

My point is that Yale needs to recognize the general interest in CS, and do many complementary things to satisfy it, including both 1) creating more light CS classes, and 2) better funding the department. Taken together, these steps would go a long way towards catching up with Harvard and other institutions.

Re: Yale Computer Science Dept overworked, understaffed

#42

Post by javert » Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 7:01 AM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #25

This will probably blow over once the impact of The Social Network has faded. Enrollment will go back down to near what it was before. I'm finishing my CS degree at Georgia State (after a 6 year hiatus) and all of the lower level classes the last 2 semesters have been filled to the brim with people who had no idea what they were getting into. When you select CS as your major, there should be a popup box that asks if…

When you select CS as your major, there should be a popup box that asks if you're aware CS involves math.

I disagree that this is good advice to give someone considering a CS major.

Math is not fundamental to CS. CS is fundamental to CS.

Most of a high school/college math curriculum is not that closely related to most of what happens in CS.

In general, there is some "mathiness" to CS, but it is of such a different flavor to "the math you learn in school" that I don't think making a comparison is useful (it certainly would not have been in my case).

I have bachelor's and master's degrees in CS and am pursuing a PhD in CS.

Re: Yale Computer Science Dept overworked, understaffed

#43

Post by cmbaus » Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 7:07 AM UTC

benesch wrote: post #32

GauntletWizard wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as my life has gone great, I really wonder what would've happened if I'd gone to RPI rather than RIT.

Rochester is a tough place to go to college, but Troy is even worse. I wouldn't second guess it. I grew up in Rochester and only recently began to appreciate it; curious to hear what your opinion is.

I went to RIT many years ago. In retrospect, I view it as a variation on a trade school, which isn't a bad thing. The co-op program was valuable, but I wish there was more focus on entrepreneurship. Maybe that has changed, but at the time the focus was definitely on job placement.

Re: Yale Computer Science Dept overworked, understaffed

#44

Post by Bramble » Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 7:39 AM UTC

simonsarris wrote: post #4

Ugh this sounds familiar. Back in 2008-2010 I was one of two sitting students on the Computer Science curriculum committee at Rensselaer Polytechnic University (RPI). Three topics were always present: 1. What do we do about kids who come in knowing inadequate math and how does this keep happening? 2. Should we consider switching out C/C++ as the default for Java as the default. (The answer to this was almost always n…

Curious: What do you consider adequate math for an beginning CS student?

Re: Yale Computer Science Dept overworked, understaffed

#45

Post by troymc » Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 7:47 AM UTC

timtadh wrote: post #40

DeepDuh wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe part of the problem is the misnomer of the whole field itself. CS is not really science, it's math. It's about tools that every professional and scientist will later need. And as such, I'd argue that teaching is actually more important than research. Of course, these tools need to be researched and developed as well, but more importantly do we need very capable teachers in order for people to build their founda…

No we do science too. Math is a fundamental part of lots of CS branches but we also do straight up science (with the whole research question, hypothesis, experiment, evaluate cycle).

I'm willing to be convinced either way, but it seems to me that there's nothing in computer science you can't figure out by thinking or using pen and paper (maybe a lot of pen and paper). You don't have to "ask nature" as Feynman would say. Contrast that with figuring out the Gravitational constant, say. The only way to estimate its value is by doing some careful measurements (i.e. asking nature). Sure there may be some calculations, but without the measurements, they're a waste of time.

Re: Yale Computer Science Dept overworked, understaffed

#46

Post by jacques_chester » Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 7:56 AM UTC

cmbaus wrote: post #31

jacques_chester wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law has transformed into the liberal arts degree of the current age. Almost nobody actually goes on to law; they go on to management or other analysis/talk careers. Edit: It occurs to me that I've caused downvotable confusion because law degrees in the USA are quite different from law degrees in Australia (where I studied law). In the USA law is a postgraduate degree. Here it is an undergraduate degree. Australian ci…

That might be becoming the case as jobs in the field dry up, but I know plenty of lawyers who went to law school to become lawyers. It is hard to justify the cost of a law degree for general education.

See my edit. Australians and Americans have quite different causes leading to attendance at law school.

Re: Yale Computer Science Dept overworked, understaffed

#47

Post by troymc » Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 7:59 AM UTC

javert wrote: post #42

learc83 wrote: post #25

This will probably blow over once the impact of The Social Network has faded. Enrollment will go back down to near what it was before. I'm finishing my CS degree at Georgia State (after a 6 year hiatus) and all of the lower level classes the last 2 semesters have been filled to the brim with people who had no idea what they were getting into. When you select CS as your major, there should be a popup box that asks if…

When you select CS as your major, there should be a popup box that asks if you're aware CS involves math. I disagree that this is good advice to give someone considering a CS major. Math is not fundamental to CS. CS is fundamental to CS. Most of a high school/college math curriculum is not that closely related to most of what happens in CS. In general, there is some "mathiness" to CS, but it is of such a different fl…

The foundations of CS are things like sets, logic, formal languages, Turing machines, computability... all math.

Maybe you didn't learn that stuff in "math class" but that doesn't mean it's not math.

Re: Yale Computer Science Dept overworked, understaffed

#48

Post by javert » Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 9:20 AM UTC

troymc wrote: post #47

javert wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you select CS as your major, there should be a popup box that asks if you're aware CS involves math. I disagree that this is good advice to give someone considering a CS major. Math is not fundamental to CS. CS is fundamental to CS. Most of a high school/college math curriculum is not that closely related to most of what happens in CS. In general, there is some "mathiness" to CS, but it is of such a different fl…

The foundations of CS are things like sets, logic, formal languages, Turing machines, computability... all math. Maybe you didn't learn that stuff in "math class" but that doesn't mean it's not math.

I would say that logic is fudamental to math and cs. I disagree with mathematicians that claim that math is prior to logic.

Formal languages, turing machines, and computability are computing science, which we call computer science. Computing science may be part of math, but math is not fundamental to it. In other words, you need logic as a basis for those examples, but otherwise, they are not dependent on other mathematical knowledge.

I don't think sets are all that important in cs (but I disagree with mathematicians who try to base everything on set theory).

Re: Yale Computer Science Dept overworked, understaffed

#49

Post by learc83 » Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 3:42 PM UTC

javert wrote: post #42

learc83 wrote: post #25

This will probably blow over once the impact of The Social Network has faded. Enrollment will go back down to near what it was before. I'm finishing my CS degree at Georgia State (after a 6 year hiatus) and all of the lower level classes the last 2 semesters have been filled to the brim with people who had no idea what they were getting into. When you select CS as your major, there should be a popup box that asks if…

When you select CS as your major, there should be a popup box that asks if you're aware CS involves math. I disagree that this is good advice to give someone considering a CS major. Math is not fundamental to CS. CS is fundamental to CS. Most of a high school/college math curriculum is not that closely related to most of what happens in CS. In general, there is some "mathiness" to CS, but it is of such a different fl…

In the intro CS class a very large percentage of students were completely baffled by division when converting between binary/hex/octal.

It was the basic arithmetic/algebra that gave them pause, not logic.

Additionally you need to take at least 4 classes that are actually in the math department to finish the degree.

Re: Yale Computer Science Dept overworked, understaffed

#50

Post by learc83 » Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 6:36 PM UTC

javert wrote: post #48

troymc wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The foundations of CS are things like sets, logic, formal languages, Turing machines, computability... all math. Maybe you didn't learn that stuff in "math class" but that doesn't mean it's not math.

I would say that logic is fudamental to math and cs. I disagree with mathematicians that claim that math is prior to logic. Formal languages, turing machines, and computability are computing science, which we call computer science. Computing science may be part of math, but math is not fundamental to it. In other words, you need logic as a basis for those examples, but otherwise, they are not dependent on other mathe…

You're correct that most of computer science (except for the explicit mat classes you're required to take) doesn't inherently rely on existing math knowledge.

However, they way computer science is taught does assume prior math knowledge. Thinking back to the very first example algorithms in my intro class--we had to impliment addition, multiplication, then heron's square root method.

Very basic math, but that was around the time many students dropped the class.