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United States Sentencing Commission website hacked

ussc.gov

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Re: United States Sentencing Commission website hacked

#111

Post by mpyne »

twoodfin wrote: post #100
mpyne wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if there were an appropriate forum for such loathsome sentiments, hn is certainly not it. This behavior is the inevitable result of lynch mobs throughout history though. Rile up the people enough and stuff like this is a byproduct. Even in the American Revolution the people started off by torturing unpopular British officials by tar-and-feathering them. One can't have their cake and eat it too.

What's your point? hn is still not the place for such behavior to be framed as "helpful".

You're right, I wasn't very clear. My point is that HN has been kind of a rallying point for some of the more intellectual opposition to anything and everything regarding how Swartz's case was handled (at least, once he killed himself).

But all of the people calling for heads to figuratively roll need to be really careful about the effect of their rallying cries. Like "having one more drink" while carrying your car keys, decisions and actions made now can spiral out of anyone's control and lead to even more anguish down the road.

Mob rule is very much a package deal, you don't just get to keep the good parts and disclaim all the rest.

Re: United States Sentencing Commission website hacked

#112

Post by vy8vWJlco »

knowtheory wrote: post #102
vy8vWJlco wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nobody in the US is going to persecute you because you think academic articles should be free (they'll largely just ignore you)." What good is the belief without the ability ("freedom") to act on it? Aaron acted on it, which was arguably a more effective form of protest, and he paid a high price too, even if one doesn't attribute the suicide to his persecution (ehem, sorry, "prosecution")... "Whoever defaced the sit…

Well, i was responding to the notion that there is nobility in this particular use of the shield of anonymity. I just happen to disagree that this is a noble use of anonymity. And, yeah, if you're going to break the law in an act of intentional protest, yeah, i hope they have the strength of conviction to own up to what it is that they're doing. Otherwise it is sort of a cowardly act of opportunity. The thing that di…

"a cowardly act of opportunity"

"just a shield for people who are breaking the law."

I would (naturally) call someone who disagrees with me, and acts on it, "abusive" too (or opportunistic, for example) even if he or she thought they were acting morally; moral arguements are hollow when the morality is what's being argued over. I'm not exactly disagreeing with you, just trying to say that moral judgement might be moot (except to one's self of course).

That said, we do seem to disagree on the definition of persecution. I do think people who believe in free access to knowledge, and who act on those moral principals, including pursuing transparency and accountability, are "persecuted"... Case(s) in point: Bradley Manning, Assange, and every other whistle-blower in history. I've said it elsewhere too, but to repeat myself: it does not feel like a safe time to develop network software, and even simple things that geeks do can easily be considered threatening or criminal. No, we're not talking holocaust or even abortionist-level persecution, but geeks still get treated differently. Ex: the very real possibility of 35 years for a nonviolent, technically simple, and arguably moral, scripted download indicates how discriminating IT laws are. As others have noted, murderers get less in most states. (15 to 25 years, typically, before time off for good behavior.) It didn't happen to me personally, but it's still pretty close to home and I guess I'm just not as convinced it's an aberration.

(I'm probably just thinking out loud.)

Re: United States Sentencing Commission website hacked

#113

Post by mindcrime »

davidroberts wrote: post #95
davidroberts wrote: post #19

Self-righteous idiots. Who made them judge and jury of the world? Do something positive.

Essentially it's a form of terrorism. They are saying do things our way or we burn your house down. They don't believe in democracy and so what's left? A world where the best people at malicious hacking rule? The same skills they used to do this can shut down power plants, bring down air planes, and wreck general mayhem. They are saying the people in power are corrupt. Some how we have to trust they will never become…

Essentially it's a form of terrorism.

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".

Re: United States Sentencing Commission website hacked

#115

Post by knowtheory »

vy8vWJlco wrote: post #112
knowtheory wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, i was responding to the notion that there is nobility in this particular use of the shield of anonymity. I just happen to disagree that this is a noble use of anonymity. And, yeah, if you're going to break the law in an act of intentional protest, yeah, i hope they have the strength of conviction to own up to what it is that they're doing. Otherwise it is sort of a cowardly act of opportunity. The thing that di…

"a cowardly act of opportunity" "just a shield for people who are breaking the law." I would (naturally) call someone who disagrees with me, and acts on it, "abusive" too (or opportunistic, for example) even if he or she thought they were acting morally; moral arguements are hollow when the morality is what's being argued over. I'm not exactly disagreeing with you, just trying to say that moral judgement might be moo…

I suspect that I'm not making myself clear enough.

I don't disagree with you that computer crimes are prosecuted in a crazy way and that it's unclear that the legal community has a technical proficiency adequate to make the sorts of fine grained judgements necessary to identify "good guys" from "bad guys" (and all of the myriad shades of grey) so they tend just to throw the book at people. This is less a persecution than it is a lack of understanding imo.

Regardless of all of that, what I am saying is that the sort of crime that Aaron Swartz was accused of is not the same sort of crime that defacing a government website is.

As a consequence the nature of the protest that Aaron Swartz engaged in versus whoever has hit this particular site are materially different.

So when people say that Aaron Swartz was persecuted, I am sympathetic, but I genuinely think that things got crazy out of hand and under other circumstances would not have (which is why MIT's role in this is one worth identifying and engaging with).

On the other hand, if someone were to say that going after the guys who hit the ussc.gov site is persecution? That's not persecution. That's going after someone who's trying to commit a crime and actual inconvenience (however negligible it is) to others.

Re: United States Sentencing Commission website hacked

#117

Post by scythe »

tokenadult wrote: post #70

[Shakes his head in disgust.] Hackers, it's time for me to hack the discussion. You and your first world problems have NO IDEA how to fight for freedom. This is the wimpy way to protest whatever it is you are protesting. Unlike most people who post here, I have actually lived under a dictatorial regime that ruled a territory that later had a peaceful transition to democracy and legally protected civil rights. Anonymo…

>The biggest problem with website-defacing movements is their cowardice (no one in Anonymous seems courageous enough to go to prison) and lack of perspective (they complain about first world problems that they mischaracterize as important problems for the common people).

I think you're missing the point, here. I like what's going on in the majority of your post -- there is a lot we can learn from other successful reform movements, but the problem here isn't "cowardice". Quite the contrary, if you can find a way to disseminate your message without being harmed or incarcerated, more power to you.

The problem is that skiddie stuff like website defacements make the movement look stupid and the activists look like common criminals. It doesn't convert anyone to your side when you hack a website like the USSC. Okay, maybe a handful of teenagers are impressed, but the majority of the country is taken aback. And the important point: anyone who is impressed by this was already on our side.

If you're reading this and disagreeing, imagine for a second that the USSC had been defaced not by Anonymous but by, say, eco-terrorists a la Edward Abbey. Sure, a card-carrying member of PETA might be happy to see such a thing, but you and I aren't likely to be converted to the cause.

One of the most important things in any sort of public debate -- even though it might seem unfair -- is the way the debate is framed. Actions like this help the government frame the debate as "order v. chaos", which is exactly the way it works best for them. If you want to win the hearts and minds of the people, focus more on exposing injustice and corruption, and less on banging that drum.

Re: United States Sentencing Commission website hacked

#118

Post by pnathan »

tokenadult wrote: post #70

[Shakes his head in disgust.] Hackers, it's time for me to hack the discussion. You and your first world problems have NO IDEA how to fight for freedom. This is the wimpy way to protest whatever it is you are protesting. Unlike most people who post here, I have actually lived under a dictatorial regime that ruled a territory that later had a peaceful transition to democracy and legally protected civil rights. Anonymo…

Referring to the Russian revolutionary period of 1905-1917, it becomes clear that provocation inspires hardline response on both sides. Each time one side does something aggressive to the other side, it is used as justification for the next, even more aggressive, counteraction. It is a pendulum that does not naturally dampen except without some kind of definite change.

So I expect see another Operation Sundevil beginning to play out, as the DoJ sees itself under attack and gains whatever authorizations to go after Anon hackers. This will doubtlessly inspire some level of strikeback, and etc etc etc.

Personally, I don't believe Anon's style of DDoS/hacktivism really resonates with the non-tech public. Anarchism is not a dance that most people like to dance to. I would suggest that uncovering clear evidence of corruption and crime, then bringing it to light via the New York Times/Guardian/etc (i.e., respected news sources) would have a much more profound impact on the general public. You have to understand the system to effect change on it. You have to understand the nature of the broad crowd and, yes, pander to what they will be energized by.

Phrased this way: No one "outside" cares about the GPL allowing rights to muck about with your computer code, it's all lawyer eggheadery. But if you frame that in a "repair" sense, it is obvious, of course you should be able to hire someone to fix your software. It's all about framing it to make it relevant to the audience. So it goes with political movements.

Re: United States Sentencing Commission website hacked

#119

Post by youngerdryas »

3327 wrote: post #101
tokenadult wrote: post #70

[Shakes his head in disgust.] Hackers, it's time for me to hack the discussion. You and your first world problems have NO IDEA how to fight for freedom. This is the wimpy way to protest whatever it is you are protesting. Unlike most people who post here, I have actually lived under a dictatorial regime that ruled a territory that later had a peaceful transition to democracy and legally protected civil rights. Anonymo…

TO start: I am not saying what they did is right, but I am saying you do not have a right to call it "Cowardice". >The biggest problem with website-defacing movements is their cowardice (no one in Anonymous seems courageous enough to go to prison) There is no right or wrong way to fight for freedom. IT is a fight a fight is a war. There are very few rules in war. Many actual freedom fighters have died in places like…

>I am saying you do not have a right to call it "Cowardice".

HN is is located in the U.S. so he has the right to say anything he damn well pleases.

Re: United States Sentencing Commission website hacked

#120

Post by genwin »

olefoo wrote: post #6

Dudes. This is not at all helpful. Website defacements just create more of an excuse for a crackdown. If you're going to risk your life and freedom hacking things; make it worth your goddam time. Hack the prison industrial complex and get the evidence that shows that crimes are being created so that prisoners can be kept at a profit. Expose the email trails of corrupt judges who put away kids for kickbacks. Dox the m…

Dudes. This is not at all helpful. Sitting at the front of the bus just creates more of an excuse for a crackdown.
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