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How Doctors Die (2011)

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Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#71

Post by javert »

quasque wrote: post #62
javert wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Risk pooling is supposed to happen at the insurance company level, not at, e.g., the corporate level. i.e. the insurance company is pooling risk across a lot of individual clients. That this only sort of happens now is an offshoot of the regulatory system. Of course, a large company will always be able to negotiate slightly better rates. In a free market, whenever it is financially rational to insure someone, it woul…

When I read things like this, it makes me so glad I live in the UK and don't have to endure any of this free market bullshit when it comes to health. The system you describe is just so chillingly brutal and callous.

No, the system you describe is chillingly brutal and callous. It is your system that is done at the point of a gun, not mine.

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#72

Post by quasque »

javert wrote: post #71
quasque wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I read things like this, it makes me so glad I live in the UK and don't have to endure any of this free market bullshit when it comes to health. The system you describe is just so chillingly brutal and callous.

No, the system you describe is chillingly brutal and callous. It is your system that is done at the point of a gun, not mine.

I don't think one could conceive a metaphor more archetypal of the US than "done at the point of a gun" -- but what do you mean by that, in terms of the UK health system?

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#73

Post by javert »

CountSessine wrote: post #54
javert wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Risk pooling is supposed to happen at the insurance company level, not at, e.g., the corporate level. i.e. the insurance company is pooling risk across a lot of individual clients. That this only sort of happens now is an offshoot of the regulatory system. Of course, a large company will always be able to negotiate slightly better rates. In a free market, whenever it is financially rational to insure someone, it woul…

In a free market, whenever it is financially rational to insure someone, it would happen. Which is why healthcare-as-insurance is so perverse. So, someone probably couldn't get insurace that covers their preexisting condition (which wouldn't be fair to the insurer), but they could get coverage for other things. Would you perhaps like to volunteer at a hospital some time? Maybe you could explain objectivist principles…

If you want to make an intellectual point, don't say something mocking and hyperbolic. Be honest about what you really believe. Be willing to defend it.

Say, "I demand that you practice altruism. I am going to force you to be good, by my definition of good, at the point of a gun."

I would want to help someone with spina bifida, but I would not want to do it because you force me to at gunpoint, while simultaneously creating a system where I myself can't get the healthcare I can actually pay for.

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#74

Post by qohen »

quasque wrote: post #62
javert wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Risk pooling is supposed to happen at the insurance company level, not at, e.g., the corporate level. i.e. the insurance company is pooling risk across a lot of individual clients. That this only sort of happens now is an offshoot of the regulatory system. Of course, a large company will always be able to negotiate slightly better rates. In a free market, whenever it is financially rational to insure someone, it woul…

When I read things like this, it makes me so glad I live in the UK and don't have to endure any of this free market bullshit when it comes to health. The system you describe is just so chillingly brutal and callous.

Unlike the UK's ever-so-compassionate National Health Service:

"Hospitals Letting Patients Die to Save Money" [0]

"Top doctor's chilling claim: The NHS kills off 130,000 elderly patients every year" [1]

"I wanted to burn down the hospital that let my husband die like a battery hen: MP's heartbreaking account of NHS neglect" [2]

Of course, unlike the wicked free market, the NHS would never put financial considerations ahead of providing care:

"Nine out of 10 NHS Trusts are 'rationing operations' " [3]

And, what wonderful care the NHS provides:

"NHS death rates four times higher than US" [4]

And, it's great how the NHS protects patient data:

"NHS lost track of 1.8m patient records in a year with sensitive information found in public bin and for sale on the internet" [5]

And there is so much more that could be said... [6].

[0] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9385674/Hospita...

[1] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2161869/Top-doctors-...

[2] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2244912/Ann-Clwyd-MP...

[3] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2161489/Nine-10-NH...

[4] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-195277/NHS-death-r...

[5] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2224580/NHS-lost-t...

[6] https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Adailymail.co.uk+NHS

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#75

Post by javert »

_delirium wrote: post #52
javert wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Risk pooling is supposed to happen at the insurance company level, not at, e.g., the corporate level. i.e. the insurance company is pooling risk across a lot of individual clients. That this only sort of happens now is an offshoot of the regulatory system. Of course, a large company will always be able to negotiate slightly better rates. In a free market, whenever it is financially rational to insure someone, it woul…

Ah, well that's where we disagree. I can't control what genes I'm born with, and I don't think there's anything wrong with socializing those risks across the population. Let's say there's a 1% risk of me being born with some condition. I think it's perfectly fair for me to pay 1% of the cost of treating that condition, whether I'm born with it or not. I don't see why I should pay 100% the cost if I get unlucky in the…

I can't control what genes I'm born with, and I don't think there's anything wrong with socializing those risks across the population.

What's wrong with it is that you're initiating force against me, and making my life manifestly worse.

I mean, as someone who can pay for my own healthcare, this is what I get out of socialized medicine in the US:

(1) Less money to spend on my own healthcare issues (2) Regulations that prevent my doctors from taking care of me in the best possible way (3) Regulations that prevent me from getting the best medicine (4) Anything medical is done in an extremely expensive and wasteful way

That's what you're doing to me, in order to instill your notion of what is "perfectly fair."

The U.S. medical system does not work effectively for the same reasons that the Soviet economy did not.

It's likely only going to keep getting worse with Obamacare.

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#76

Post by javert »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #56
javert wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Risk pooling is supposed to happen at the insurance company level, not at, e.g., the corporate level. i.e. the insurance company is pooling risk across a lot of individual clients. That this only sort of happens now is an offshoot of the regulatory system. Of course, a large company will always be able to negotiate slightly better rates. In a free market, whenever it is financially rational to insure someone, it woul…

Having been denied insurance because of a procedure that I underwent to make me considerably more healthy, I call bullshit. How do you "not cover" the result of a procedure that impacted every aspect of my life while covering everything else? Naked capitalism and healthcare can't work together (and this coming from somebody who strongly believes the government has way too many fingers in way too many pies). The prior…

I do think government regulation (in particular, the tax benefit for companies providing insurance) have made the situation far worse than it needs to be.

In the end, it's an incredibly complex problem that should not be handled in at the Federal level

Then you are arguing on the wrong side.

You are like the Republican Party. You argue that one thing is practical, but another thing is moral. You cede the moral high ground to the other party. Ironic, since the moral high ground ought to be yours.

How do you "not cover" the result of a procedure that impacted every aspect of my life while covering everything else

If it's that important, why don't you just pay for it? Why do you point a gun at me and force me to pay for your procedure? If our medical system were free, it would be as efficient as the veterinary system, and the cost reduction would be commensurate. So, you see, the moral is the practical.

Naked capitalism and healthcare can't work together

Neither can capitalism and clothing, consumer electronics, toothpaste, food, transportation. I mean, everywhere we have tried capitalism, it has failed. Everywhere we have tried socialization and regulation, it has worked. Why don't we apply the model of the Soviet Union to our healthcare system? That is obviously a pro-healthy choice.

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#77

Post by noonespecial »

javert wrote: post #38
_delirium wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American who typically values choice and being able to shop around, but I agree that it ends up creating this sort of unpleasant situation in healthcare. Lots of reasons, but two big ones are: 1) lots of buyers who cannot say no, e.g. someone in an ambulance on a way to a hospital is not in a strong negotiating position; and 2) the insurance model doesn't work that well, because incidents are strongly correlat…

Please realize that the current horrible insurance system is almost entirely a product of government regultory practice.

I'd say that the biggest problem is that insurance... isn't. People want to pay for it like insurance but have it act like: a shared cost equalization system, a tax feee medical saving/spending system, a group buy (collective bargaining) discount system, a network referral system, an emergency care guarantee, oh and every once in a while, a standard insurance policy.

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#79

Post by quasque »

qohen wrote: post #74
quasque wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I read things like this, it makes me so glad I live in the UK and don't have to endure any of this free market bullshit when it comes to health. The system you describe is just so chillingly brutal and callous.

Unlike the UK's ever-so-compassionate National Health Service: "Hospitals Letting Patients Die to Save Money" [0] "Top doctor's chilling claim: The NHS kills off 130,000 elderly patients every year" [1] "I wanted to burn down the hospital that let my husband die like a battery hen: MP's heartbreaking account of NHS neglect" [2] Of course, unlike the wicked free market, the NHS would never put financial considerations…

The NHS is not perfect (as some of your tales of woe cherry-picked from right-wing newspapers suggest), but its core mission is essentially that of compassion and fairness: to provide medical care to each member of the population regardless of their financial circumstances.

Any health care system that does not aspire to that ideal is by its very nature horrendously biased against the poor.

(By the way, you should be more careful with the articles you choose to believe. For example, the research cited in the one titled "NHS death rates four times higher than US" did not show any such thing - it was a comparison between one UK and one US hospital, on a relatively tiny cohort of 1000 patients, showing a mere 7.5% difference in post-operative death rate. It is ridiculous to extrapolate this data to the entire health care systems of two countries.

This is typical of Daily Mail spin on such research - you'd be much better off not citing that newspaper at all due to its inherent bias against the NHS.)

Re: How Doctors Die (2011)

#80

Post by CountSessine »

qohen wrote: post #74
quasque wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I read things like this, it makes me so glad I live in the UK and don't have to endure any of this free market bullshit when it comes to health. The system you describe is just so chillingly brutal and callous.

Unlike the UK's ever-so-compassionate National Health Service: "Hospitals Letting Patients Die to Save Money" [0] "Top doctor's chilling claim: The NHS kills off 130,000 elderly patients every year" [1] "I wanted to burn down the hospital that let my husband die like a battery hen: MP's heartbreaking account of NHS neglect" [2] Of course, unlike the wicked free market, the NHS would never put financial considerations…

Are you really sure that you want to cite "The Daily Hate"?
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