Live data from Hacker News

Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

liv.dreamwidth.org

51–60 of 134 posts

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#51
post #18

The "supervision" in a PhD can be a problem . Some Professors just keep shooting down their students' ideas, rather than actually teaching or guiding them. Some don't provide any feedback at all, like the student is supposed to pick things up by telepathic osmosis. I guess the victims are the students who take 7 years to finish. I wouldn't recommend a PhD.

My CS PhD took 6 years. I liked it OK, despite the hardships and uncertainty. My main response to the article is that those people who are right for a PhD program will know it: they don't need to be told or warned or advised for or against. Even though academics are a rational pursuit, the decision to dedicate yourself so much to anything has got to be from the heart, otherwise just don't, and you probably wouldn't even be wondering in the first place.

My other reaction to the article is that it is just describing all the aspects almost any really difficult accomplishment: it takes too long, no one is there to help you on the hardest parts, you have to give up significant other things in life (including a real part of your time, relationships, and health), people may try to block you, you run the risk of it all being for nothing, and in the end no one is going to care about it as much as you had to care about it. Replace "PhD" with climbing a mountain, building a successful business, raising a child, writing a novel, etc. and it all still applies.

Earning a PhD is not supposed to be your last, biggest accomplishment in life any more than getting through high school is the biggest accomplishment for most people. Earning a PhD is your first official dent in the universe. It is practice for a life of taking on more hard and uncertain challenges. A lot of people do that, with or without the PhD as practice.

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#52
What a refreshing article when I'm about to defend my PhD this Friday :)

My experience of the PhD was that it didn't break me but I come out of my studies having completely lost all respect for academia.

I finished my dissertation in about two and a half years (the main contribution and content of it) and then I waited for about three years to be able to defend it. No matter how often I pressed things and asked whether something was missing or lacking nothing happened (I actually blame my advisor). It wasn't until after I talked to the department head and said that I would not university registration fees (we have to pay them every year) unless something happened. Some other professor was put in charge and that made my advisor angry and everything got delayed again and now I'm finally finishing.

What bothers me is that I'm defending based on knowledge I had three years ago and I'm not allowed to add to it since that's not a part of my dissertation (and I've been really afraid of some other individual having published similar or same finding in those three years - I haven't really been following all research since I lost all interest in academia).

:)

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#53
post #24

As others are saying in this thread, I find myself disagreeing with almost every point the author makes about doing a PhD. I'm just about to hand in my thesis after 3 and half years of doing a PhD in theoretical physics in the UK. I've published 2 papers and have a third in preparation so I feel like my PhD has been 'good'. In contrast to the author, I've worked on my PhD no more than 40 hours a week, often less sinc…

The UK system is reputed to be far less abusive than the US system. The US system put me through the frigging wringer.

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#54
I could not disagree more with the author - in fact at the moment I feel sorry for her.

TLDR: PhD is not for whimps

Yes it has the potential to break you, yes you will have very or little feedback loop and almost no money, and yes more people look forward being in academia for the freedom to pursue whatever research they fancy.

But this whole interpretation is very very wrong.

A PhD is a life changing experience - you learn how to learn and discover new knowledge - a process that can be extended to other disciplines and topics (it's not unusual to find someone with a PhD in something doing research in something very different).

It's the single best investment in yourself you can make - if you do value your capacity to work and create value, not just being paid to do stuff other people tell you to do, or what everybody has done in a given way for ages, and so you keep it doing that way for tradition/lack of creativity/no reason whatsoever.

Also, the biggest difference between the work you do during your PhD and the other work is that you work effectively without any precise objective. You learn to find inward motivation - which is the best replacement there is to outward reward. The work you do is its own reward. With that, and the kind of commitment you showed in the research-work you did alone for years, you can take any challenge you want.

Certainly, you work will be dissected by the best experts in the domain, and they will criticize it in any way they can - basically, you can't cheat. You have to actually do something outstanding, for which you will be judged.

It seems to me that's what most people on HN love and value : being judged on the merit of your work. At least that's why I love and value.

The only problem with all this is IMHO that many (most?) who do a PhD want to work in academia afterwards, to have the freedom to work on the topics they enjoy. I had the same failings - guilty as charged. I wanted to do something great and then to keep improving it in ways I saw fit. But I changed my ways (and got out of a tenure track in late 2012 - it's not for me)

I believe this is wrong, because anyone who wants to do that believes that its own interests are for some reason better than what the market values. It's good and all, do whatever you fancy, but not on my dime - not on public money. Get a real job.

I learnt a lot during my PhD - but more importantly I bootstrapped unknown capabilities to create knowledge - something that's bringing value in many things I do.

EDIT: for anyone interested, my last post on the topic and how my PhD in CS is currently coming into the real world 5 years later : http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4871888

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#55

What a refreshing article when I'm about to defend my PhD this Friday :) My experience of the PhD was that it didn't break me but I come out of my studies having completely lost all respect for academia. I finished my dissertation in about two and a half years (the main contribution and content of it) and then I waited for about three years to be able to defend it. No matter how often I pressed things and asked wheth…

Hey, tryggvib. There are a lot of comments I can make in this thread (I'm 50 years old, Ph.D. in physics, despised classes but loved research), but I'm only going to make this one, to you: Good luck Friday!! Remember, YOU are the world's expert in this specialty. Remain calm, and don't let them rattle you.

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#56
post #54

I could not disagree more with the author - in fact at the moment I feel sorry for her. TLDR: PhD is not for whimps Yes it has the potential to break you, yes you will have very or little feedback loop and almost no money, and yes more people look forward being in academia for the freedom to pursue whatever research they fancy. But this whole interpretation is very very wrong. A PhD is a life changing experience - yo…

Sums it up beautifully! Though one should not underestimate the downfalls most encounter on the way, or the very real possibility of failure. I have never encountered higher highs and lower lows than during my phd. Though it has made me a better person.

You learn how to think (something no undergrad could ever do so rigorously). You learn how to motivate yourself.

Invaluable lessons..

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#57
post #20
post #4

Boy, all the articles about Ph.D.'s on HN are so negative. I had a great time getting mine. I got a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering from Carnegie Mellon. I guess it must depend a lot on the subject you're studying. We mostly did classes for the first two years. We got an adviser in the second year, and gradually ramped up the research. I finished in 4 years and 3 months. Pretty much everyone in the program would finish…

Note that there is a huge difference between the UK PhD and the US PhD process. In the UK you are left to your own devices for 3 years, and only find out if the external examiner even approves of your research questions in the one and only final verbal exam. It is up to you alone to ensure the research is valid and makes a contribution. US PhD candidates have a lot more guidance and handholding that includes 4 years…

At good uk universities you get excellent guidance, with multiple intermittent milestones and ongoing scrutinisation of your progress. Unless you pick a rubbish supervisor who simply doesn't care. Though I only can speak of Oxford..

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#58
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often, you don't. When I applied to graduate school I intended to keep my full time "real pay" job. My PhD program only accepted students who would take a graduate student stipend and commit full time to the "program." After going through it, I understand why they want that commitment and I would not recommend anyone try to get a PhD in the spare time.

That's a shame. So, basically, choosing to start a family first keeps you out of academia forever by design .

I think hardhead might have just been referring to keeping a "full time job" which is impossible in many of the STEM PhD programs in the US. A lab-mate of mine has a child, and I know a few others in my program that have children as well. Almost all STEM PhD programs offer stipends for TAs and/or RAs, so you might get on the order of 20K/year to be a student. That being said, there are no shortage of people claiming the grad student -> postdoc -> nontenured prof. -> tenured prof. route is hostile to those wanting a family.

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#59
post #23

I just finished up a Master's in Computer Science. It took 5 years; my initial advisor died and I had to find another one to step in. I went deep into debt (no funding) and finally switched over to a part-time study while I worked full time. Unfortunately, it was just that point when the real research was ramping up. I remember nights where I would be falling asleep as I crammed my code in to see it work. Then more n…

Now, I want a PhD. Because I know of no other way forward to where I am tasked with advancing our field, publishing the result, and building a paying career on that. This is the basic problem we have to solve. Yes, doing a PhD can suck , and the job market for academics sucks , but there's basically no other way to do original research and make original research-grade scientific advancements for a living.

This is something I totally agree with. I wish the borders between academia and the professional world were a bit more permeable. Academia (often) suffers from a severe disconnect from practice, and the professional world could really benefit if there were more space for research. What if you could occasionally take a year or two teaching and researching on a subject important to you, and then go back?

Re: Dear brilliant students: Please consider not doing a PhD.

#60
post #57
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that there is a huge difference between the UK PhD and the US PhD process. In the UK you are left to your own devices for 3 years, and only find out if the external examiner even approves of your research questions in the one and only final verbal exam. It is up to you alone to ensure the research is valid and makes a contribution. US PhD candidates have a lot more guidance and handholding that includes 4 years…

At good uk universities you get excellent guidance, with multiple intermittent milestones and ongoing scrutinisation of your progress. Unless you pick a rubbish supervisor who simply doesn't care. Though I only can speak of Oxford..

It's also important to note that the supervising culture varies a lot between subjects. Computer scientists are usually spoiled by good supervision, but in the humanities you might see your supervisor only twice a year.. (and I do know people in Oxford in that situation).
Post reply on HN