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Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

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Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#71

Post by tych0 »

logn wrote: post #38
tych0 wrote: post #2

> In 2008 Jonathan James killed himself after being implicated in the largest personal identity hack in history. Wrong kind of hacker.

He claimed he was innocent in his suicide note. Maybe a suicide note is a great place to lie in attempt to clear your name. But I think he's probably being honest to an extent. Note that he was charged and found guilty of hacking NASA (essentially), but his suicide related to the identity theft. From Wikipedia on the identity theft investigation: "Though he denied having done anything, James—who was friends with some…

Yeah, I don't disagree that he probably was innocent. My point is simply that this isn't the Hacker News hacker, but the talking head hacker.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#72

Post by jordanb »

kule wrote: post #40
greghinch wrote: post #3

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fire-assistant-us-...

This just feels like mob mentality to me. Someone messed up, albeit badly. I would guess the guy feels bad enough as it is without needing to get 25k people to kick him when he's down. EDIT: I guess what I'd really hope to have seen (not being a US citizen) is some petitions to get the laws/system changed rather than looking for someone to blame.

Peacefully petitioning one's government to remove an appointed official is kinda odd behavior for a mob, isn't it?

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#73

Post by wglb »

kule wrote: post #40
greghinch wrote: post #3

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fire-assistant-us-...

This just feels like mob mentality to me. Someone messed up, albeit badly. I would guess the guy feels bad enough as it is without needing to get 25k people to kick him when he's down. EDIT: I guess what I'd really hope to have seen (not being a US citizen) is some petitions to get the laws/system changed rather than looking for someone to blame.

I would guess the guy feels bad enough

Nothing that I have seen suggests that he feels badly at all.

Swartz’s attorney Elliot Peters accused Heymann of aggressively pursuing Swartz because the case “"was going to receive press and he was going to be a tough guy and read his name in the newspaper."

There are attorneys, some of them prosecutors, that get a kick out of pulling wings off of flies.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#74

Post by cecilpl »

Fjolle wrote: post #55
downandout wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two does not necessarily make a trend, to be sure. However, if the odds are 1 in 10,000, a small number of incidents quickly become a significant indicator that the way this guy handles cases dramatically increases the likelihood of suicide. I don't know if any reports have been done on the subject that would be relevant here (specific to federal defendants, as they generally are looking at more time and are more lik…

You assume way too much. I highly doubt that federal defendants are 10 times less likely to commit suicide than the general population in USA. For me personally two is still waaay to low for it to be considered anything but a fluke.

The general population suicide rate is about 1 in 10,000, which is what the GP quoted. What's your source for saying it's 1 in 1000?

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#75

Post by johnbellone »

kule wrote: post #40
greghinch wrote: post #3

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fire-assistant-us-...

This just feels like mob mentality to me. Someone messed up, albeit badly. I would guess the guy feels bad enough as it is without needing to get 25k people to kick him when he's down. EDIT: I guess what I'd really hope to have seen (not being a US citizen) is some petitions to get the laws/system changed rather than looking for someone to blame.

There needs to be a precedent set that this is unacceptable.

Unfortunately I have a feeling that the Obama administration will respond with something to the effect of "no comment."

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#76

Post by laumars »

BrokenPipe wrote: post #70
laumars wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Craprags don't exist to discredit the truth. They exist to sell their version of the truth. Sometimes that means distorting reality a little, by promoting statistics that appear -to the uninformed- to support their argument. However sometimes their version of the truth can be served verbatim. However sometimes, the truth is distorted simply because the reporter isn't educated on that subject. It's a common problem wi…

More often than not I'm not that upset either way between malice and stupidity. The issue I have is, mostly and particularly on important topics, with their arguments themselves. Because with big topics, you can excuse errors with stupidity (or malice as you will) but truly can't excuse the rhetoric and central message they try to convey. On big topics and high profile news you would suspect the message is not the jo…

    > On big topics and high profile news you would suspect the message is not the journalist's independent bias but is instead the management's or dare I say administration's, not just some slipped piece of news that hasn't gone through central editing and review.
All bare one of my points* was about the managements bias.

* re science reporters

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#77

Post by jacquesm »

rayiner wrote: post #18
rdtsc wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Innocent people do not kill themselves when confronted with the possibility of a trial. Yap. Because they will clearly receive a speedy and fair trial. Without bullying and predatory plea bargaining involved. In the end when they are sure to be acquitted, if the accuser is the government, they will get all court and lawyer costs paid, and then some extra for time, inconvenience and the pain involved.

This particular person was earlier caught hacking into computers at the DOD and NASA (as a minor). He was indicted around June or July and entered a plea in September for which he received six months of house arrest and probation until 18 (about a year). It's not a reasonable presumption that this was someone who was innocent who knew he was going to get railroaded "by the system." He was clearly someone who knew he…

Hackers routinely use the 'joe job' trick to implicate others for their crimes. If you're ever on the receiving end of such a scheme you might change your opinion on 'reasonable presumptions'.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#78

Post by wglb »

rprasad wrote: post #10

Two weeks after the Secret Service raided his house in conjunction with the investigation led by Heymann into the theft of tens of thousands of credit card numbers, James was found dead. Innocent people do not kill themselves when confronted with the possibility of a trial. They kill themselves after they have lost at trial. This other hacker (Jonathan James) didn't even wait until they pressed charges. It's not a ma…

Innocent people do not kill themselves when confronted with the possibility of a trial.

Well, we have two counterexamples to this.

You do speak with a lot of authority on this topic.

I am wondering if you have ever been wrongly accused of anything serious?

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#79

Post by rayiner »

BrokenPipe wrote: post #60
ars wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go back and read it again. This list of not the number of different people who go to prison, it's the percentage at any given moment. So a longer sentence will inflate the numbers on this list.

Still, the US has more people in jail than any other country however you look at it. The fact that this is due to longer prison terms is relevant but doesn't change a thing does it ? I wouldn't suppose that citizens of the US are more criminal than the avg citizen of the world. It's just that you have the Prison Industry and legalized corruption (see lobbying)

The distinction is quite relevant to the narrative. If your narrative is that the laws and prosecutors unfairly put people in prison that don't belong there, then you want to compare the percentage of people who ever go to prison, not the percentage if people in prison at any given time. The latter fact is relevant to a narrative that our prison terms are too long, but that's a distinct problem.

Also, we do have higher rates of violent crime than our peers. You can't ignore that.

And while its phat to blame the lobbyists, I don't think that's the entirety if the distinction. Americans are simply more retributive than other people. Look at the death penalty. It's 2012 and half the country would be up in arms if the Supreme Court declared it unconstitutional. At the end of the day, prison terms are long because being "tough in crime" got a lot of votes in the 1970's and 1980's.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#80

Post by darkarmani »

rprasad wrote: post #10

Two weeks after the Secret Service raided his house in conjunction with the investigation led by Heymann into the theft of tens of thousands of credit card numbers, James was found dead. Innocent people do not kill themselves when confronted with the possibility of a trial. They kill themselves after they have lost at trial. This other hacker (Jonathan James) didn't even wait until they pressed charges. It's not a ma…

> Innocent people do not kill themselves when confronted with the possibility of a trial.

You are completely wrong. All of them have the charges dropped, so they aren't ever convicted. And as we know it everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

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