Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners

latimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 82 posts

Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners

#41

Post by jlgreco »

tokenadult wrote: post #31

It's harsh to say, and I know that there is much reason to think that the prosecutor was over-prosecuting Aaron Swartz's case, but this kind of blame-shifting on the part of parents is not helpful to a young person who is at high risk for suicide. Civil disobedience according to Thoreau, according to Gandhi, and according to Martin Luther King, Jr. is all about being willing to do the time after intentionally breakin…

> Civil disobedience according to Thoreau, according to Gandhi, and according to Martin Luther King, Jr. is all about being willing to do the time after intentionally breaking a law

The issue I am seeing here is that this take on civil disobedience is only worth it if your incarceration does one or more of the following: threatens to clog the system, infuriates the masses, draws attention to the absurdity of the system, provides an opportunity to set legal precedent, or is just in general noticed and cared about. If it does none of those things, then the only thing getting caught/locked up accomplishes is the silencing of another voice.

Of course you could also say that protesters should accept arrests even if there is nothing to be gained by it just to adhere to some sort of socratic social contract mentality, but not everyone buys into that mentality. I know I certainly do not.

If you are confident that you can secure convictions, and are confident that the system can handle the load, and are confident that the masses don't really give a shit about anything unless a celebrity is involved, then telling activists to go get arrested becomes an effective tool of suppression.

Had Swartz been convicted and served his sentence, would the HN community at large care? We were dismissive when he was alive and it looked like he was hosed, would that have really changed when the jury came back with their verdict?

Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners

#42

Post by [deleted] »

tcuk wrote: post #35
politician wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say "because it is in my opinion that in fact X," what you've said is simply that "in your opinion X". I point that out because Aaron apparently had a different opinion that led him to make a different choice. I find it strange that posing a question which you and Aaron answer differently in order to probe your rational is "a total red herring". I respect that you don't believe these laws are just. One such…

politician, with respect I think you need to be more concise with your questions, I would hope Aaron would also say 'no' to the vague: 'Should you always plead guilty to crimes the Government accuses you of?' Did you perhaps mean to ask: 'Should you always plead guilty to crimes the Government accuses you of, even when you believe you are right?' Which is still a red herring because it doesn't address the issue: Did…

[deleted]

Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners

#43

Post by politician »

mc32 wrote: post #37
politician wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that did not happen here, did it? Does that make Heymann a contributor?

I don't think so. It's a really tenous connection. It's like saying me getting on the freeway contributed to an accident which happens 10 minutes behind me. Sure, maybe if I had not gotten on the freeway that would have caused a different pattern of traffic on the freeway so that the accident would not have happened, but in no way would I be a direct contributor.

Would you change your mind if you were warned that by getting on the freeway there stood a serious above average risk of causing a accident?

Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners

#44

Post by BrokenPipe »

tcuk wrote: post #35
politician wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say "because it is in my opinion that in fact X," what you've said is simply that "in your opinion X". I point that out because Aaron apparently had a different opinion that led him to make a different choice. I find it strange that posing a question which you and Aaron answer differently in order to probe your rational is "a total red herring". I respect that you don't believe these laws are just. One such…

politician, with respect I think you need to be more concise with your questions, I would hope Aaron would also say 'no' to the vague: 'Should you always plead guilty to crimes the Government accuses you of?' Did you perhaps mean to ask: 'Should you always plead guilty to crimes the Government accuses you of, even when you believe you are right?' Which is still a red herring because it doesn't address the issue: Did…

trespassing maybe. Not any serious bulling plus 13 counts. Are you not the troll from early today ? How many accounts is that ?

Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners

#45

Post by subsystem »

tokenadult wrote: post #31

It's harsh to say, and I know that there is much reason to think that the prosecutor was over-prosecuting Aaron Swartz's case, but this kind of blame-shifting on the part of parents is not helpful to a young person who is at high risk for suicide. Civil disobedience according to Thoreau, according to Gandhi, and according to Martin Luther King, Jr. is all about being willing to do the time after intentionally breakin…

He didn't "test some limits". He did what most people interested in computers have done at one point. Connect to a network you aren't supposed to connect to and download something you aren't supposed to download.

Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners

#46

Post by politician »

anigbrowl wrote: post #36
politician wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't you aware that we already do take into account the mental states of defendants - the mentally challenged, the insane?

Yes, and one of the ways we do so is by the defense filing a motion to argue that the defendant is unfit to stand trial for the time being. I haven't followed the motion work in the case, so I don't know if his defense team made any such claim. But it seems to be that quite a few people are trying to have it both ways - on the one hand he was too mentally fragile to be put on trial, on the other he wanted his day in…

That is a good argument for why Heymann would not be a contributor. That is, Heymann has clean hands because the defense failed to make the court aware that Swartz was possibly unfit to stand trial. Thank you.

Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners

#47

Post by tvladeck »

staunch wrote: post #3

Going from being rich to poor (due to legal costs), facing years in prison, and becoming a convicted felon for life? For running what amounted to "wget -r http://jstor.mit.edu/ " to download publicly funded academic papers? I think even someone who had never suffered from depression might contemplate suicide. His father's words may be a little too strong, but they're not entirely off-base either.

He never had to go from being rich to poor or face years in prison if he had just plead guilty to the crime that he plainly committed.

The choices and the risk that he faced were entirely of his own volition. It's very sad, but it's not the government's fault.

Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners

#48

Post by jlgreco »

anigbrowl wrote: post #22
politician wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you always plead guilty to crimes the Government accuses you of?

No, but if there's prima facie evidence of criminal activity (such as the surveillance video, being caught red-handed with the laptop), then maybe you should consider it. Effectively the government was asking him to face up to the fact that whatever his views about the ethics of JSTOR were, the way he acted upon them (breaking into a wiring closet etc.) was illegal. It's not like anybody contests the facts of what he…

It seems to me that there is a fine difference between admitting you did the act, and admitting you did the act and conceding the act indeed violated the laws the prosecutors assert.

For example, presumably Aaron's lawyers would argue that while Aaron did in fact use a fake name on a captive portal, but that doing so was not wire fraud.

Why should you abstain from arguing if your actions violated the law just because they have hard proof that you did in fact perform those actions?

Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners

#49

Post by sethist »

politician wrote: post #40
sethist wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In those cases isn't it due to the fact that the defendant is unable to mentally process their crime, trial, or potential punishment?

The fact that the boy is dead is grim proof that he was "unable to mentally process his potential punishment".

No it isn't. If anything it shows that he didn't want to endure his potential punishment. If he didn't understand the potential punishment there would be no need to commit suicide.

Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners

#50

Post by oinksoft »

Adam503 wrote: post #30
clarky07 wrote: post #11

I really feel for his family, but I just can't blame his death on the Government. Did they handle this poorly and overreach greatly? Yes. Did they kill him? No. He was offered a plea deal for 6 months in prison. Nobody in their right mind kills themselves over 6 months in jail or the prospect of being a felon. Obviously being labeled a felon and 6 months in jail sucks, but it's not like he couldn't get a job because…

Aaron Swartz was not a very big guy at all. Aaron Swartz would have been raped within moments of walking in a Federal Prison. Aaron Swartz prison stay would have been 6 months of non-stop prison rape. Impending prison rape is exactly the sort of thing reasonable people commit suicide about. All the time.

They have protective custody for this and he would absolutely have gotten it.
Post reply on HN