It's harsh to say, and I know that there is much reason to think that the prosecutor was over-prosecuting Aaron Swartz's case, but this kind of blame-shifting on the part of parents is not helpful to a young person who is at high risk for suicide. Civil disobedience according to Thoreau, according to Gandhi, and according to Martin Luther King, Jr. is all about being willing to do the time after intentionally breaking a law. All three of those pioneers of civil disobedience spent time locked up in conditions worse than any Swartz would possibly have faced even if convicted. No one in the United States government killed Swartz, just as no one in the United States government forced him to download the JSTOR files through a method that Larry Lessig says he would never have advised Swartz to use. Swartz tested some limits of the system, and found out he miscalculated. He caved in when it came time to stay alive to test the system another day.
Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners
31–40 of 82 posts
Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
Aren't you aware that we already do take into account the mental states of defendants - the mentally challenged, the insane?
In extreme cases, yes. People are put on suicide watches, but the trials proceed. The bar for being considered 'insane' and 'mentally unfit' is very high. You have people who would colloquially be considered 'crazy' go to trial, represent themselves, etc.
But that did not happen here, did it? Does that make Heymann a contributor?
Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners
#33Going from being rich to poor (due to legal costs), facing years in prison, and becoming a convicted felon for life? For running what amounted to "wget -r http://jstor.mit.edu/ " to download publicly funded academic papers? I think even someone who had never suffered from depression might contemplate suicide. His father's words may be a little too strong, but they're not entirely off-base either.
You forgot Swartz being threatened with months of non-stop prison rape.
Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you saying one should not sue, or at least weigh heavily, people's mental state prior to launching a lawsuit? Is that current procedure, run mental evaluations before suing? Lots of people have mental breakdowns before and during trials. The trials proceed so long as people are 'mentally competent' to stand trial. If something like this were allowed, people would pretty much abuse the system and claim mental angu…
Aren't you aware that we already do take into account the mental states of defendants - the mentally challenged, the insane?
In those cases isn't it due to the fact that the defendant is unable to mentally process their crime, trial, or potential punishment?
Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the answer is obviously 'no'. But I also believe that your question is exactly what is bad about the situation. It is a total red herring to the issue at hand. Let me expand: He should have pleaded guilty to the crimes, because it is in my opinion, that he did infact break current laws, and that 6 months + felony, is not life ending sentence, far from it. Consider this: I also believe the laws in which he bro…
When you say "because it is in my opinion that in fact X," what you've said is simply that "in your opinion X". I point that out because Aaron apparently had a different opinion that led him to make a different choice. I find it strange that posing a question which you and Aaron answer differently in order to probe your rational is "a total red herring". I respect that you don't believe these laws are just. One such…
politician, with respect I think you need to be more concise with your questions, I would hope Aaron would also say 'no' to the vague:
'Should you always plead guilty to crimes the Government accuses you of?'
Did you perhaps mean to ask:
'Should you always plead guilty to crimes the Government accuses you of, even when you believe you are right?'
Which is still a red herring because it doesn't address the issue:
Did Aaron truly believe he broke no current laws, or did he believe so strongly the laws were bullshit, so he shouldn't be prosecuted at all? (which means he still actually broke them)
Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you saying one should not sue, or at least weigh heavily, people's mental state prior to launching a lawsuit? Is that current procedure, run mental evaluations before suing? Lots of people have mental breakdowns before and during trials. The trials proceed so long as people are 'mentally competent' to stand trial. If something like this were allowed, people would pretty much abuse the system and claim mental angu…
Aren't you aware that we already do take into account the mental states of defendants - the mentally challenged, the insane?
Yes, and one of the ways we do so is by the defense filing a motion to argue that the defendant is unfit to stand trial for the time being. I haven't followed the motion work in the case, so I don't know if his defense team made any such claim. But it seems to be that quite a few people are trying to have it both ways - on the one hand he was too mentally fragile to be put on trial, on the other he wanted his day in court to argue for the right to download freely and so the plea bargain with the mild sentence (which would have been served in some sort of minimum security facility) was an unconscionable deal with the devil.
Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
In extreme cases, yes. People are put on suicide watches, but the trials proceed. The bar for being considered 'insane' and 'mentally unfit' is very high. You have people who would colloquially be considered 'crazy' go to trial, represent themselves, etc.
But that did not happen here, did it? Does that make Heymann a contributor?
I don't think so. It's a really tenous connection. It's like saying me getting on the freeway contributed to an accident which happens 10 minutes behind me. Sure, maybe if I had not gotten on the freeway that would have caused a different pattern of traffic on the freeway so that the accident would not have happened, but in no way would I be a direct contributor.
Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners
#38Going from being rich to poor (due to legal costs), facing years in prison, and becoming a convicted felon for life? For running what amounted to "wget -r http://jstor.mit.edu/ " to download publicly funded academic papers? I think even someone who had never suffered from depression might contemplate suicide. His father's words may be a little too strong, but they're not entirely off-base either.
You forgot Swartz being threatened with months of non-stop prison rape.
[citation needed]
Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
Everyone involved in the case had been made aware of Aaron's depression http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/he_ll_be_safe_in_jail_fed... They knew that this (suicide) was a risk if they kept hounding the guy - yet the Prosecutors and MIT both kept going at it - for the sake of political gain (prosecutors).
> yet the Prosecutors and MIT both kept going at it - for the sake of political gain (prosecutors). Do you have proof of this, or is it just what you believe of the situation?
Well yeah, it's also in article here on HN.
They wanted him to have jail time
Re: Aaron Swartz was 'killed by the government,' father tells mourners
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
Aren't you aware that we already do take into account the mental states of defendants - the mentally challenged, the insane?
In those cases isn't it due to the fact that the defendant is unable to mentally process their crime, trial, or potential punishment?
The fact that the boy is dead is grim proof that he was "unable to mentally process his potential punishment".