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Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

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Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#511

Post by DannyBee »

mscarborough wrote: post #483
DannyBee wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

edw519 is allowed to have an opinion, and his opinion does not, at least to me, seem unreasonable. Not everyone is going to agree with your civil disobedience actions, or you asking for help with the consequences. That doesn't make them bad people, or wrong people, for saying they don't like your approach, think you should accept consequences, or whatever else. For example, MLK didn't hate the clergymen that disagree…

How do you justify the change from "this guy deserves what was coming to him" ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4529484 ) to "OMG this is so sad" (mostly every thread since then, but also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5047846 )? It's so unapologetically hypocritical. We don't need to pretend like every tragedy affects us so deeply.

So being hypocritical is "pretense of having virtues, beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually possess"

You are assuming that edw519 does not find Cory's eulogy to bring understanding to sad and confused people.

You also claim it doesn't affect him deeply. Maybe it does because he felt he was so hard on him?

In essence, I guess I justify this change by saying I believe his post when he said he feels it will "bring understanding to sad and confused people."

Again, it's perfectly reasonable to dislike or villify someone, but be sad or confused at their passing, and find comfort in a eulogy.

Let me risk a few pitchforks and say I used to villify former senator Ted Stevens. He was an unapologetic pork barrel politician. When he died suddenly in a plane crash, that does not mean I was happy for his death, and I was definitely sad and felt bad for his loved ones. I was not at home screaming "wooh, that arrogant fucker's dead!" while dancing around the room. Had his eulogy been posted here and I noticed, I would have hoped it would bring understanding and comfort to those who loved him.

Does this make me a hypocrite? No, because it's not a pretense. I was in fact, genuinely sad. Personally, I don't think that makes me anything more than "not a sociopath".

It could be i'm just different than a lot of folks, of course. As a lawyer, it's basically beaten into our heads to be dispassionate and objective when evaluating people, emotions, and events.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#512

Post by niggler »

mcantelon wrote: post #496
niggler wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is HN. I don't think edw519 or any of the critics back then would change their mind as a result of the suicide, not because they don't care but because reacting to the suicide would be an emotional reaction and the critics made their opinions based on an unchanged set of facts. It's clear even back then that the core facts were known.

>It's clear even back then that the core facts were known. The "core facts", about whether or not it would be "seriously wrong" for Swarz to ask the community for financial assistance, would be knowledge of Swarz's financials. Was edw519 privy to this information? Probably not.

From Lessig's response it sounded like the information was common knowledge ...

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#513

Post by mpyne »

analog wrote: post #506
mpyne wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well for a legal prosecutor "legally wrong" is the point that matters (and it's this way for a very important reason). Likewise the state prosecutes in some situations even if the "victim" doesn't want to press charges, as the responsibility of the state extends far beyond just the party that was allegedly wronged. I've mentioned it elsewhere but it's well enough to reiterate: Even know we know that there was a plea…

The prosecutors were told he was a suicide risk. “The thing that galls me is that I told Heymann the kid was a suicide risk,” Good told me. “His reaction was a standard reaction in that office, not unique to Steve. He said, ‘Fine, we’ll lock him up.’ I’m not saying they made Aaron kill himself. Aaron might have done this anyway. I’m saying they were aware of the risk, and they were heedless. http://www.bostonglobe.co…

Bradley Manning was claimed to be a suicide risk and thereby placed on suicide prevention watch, under conditions so severe that the military judge overseeing the case later gave a reduction on any eventual sentence based on his initial treatment. So no matter what you do you're apparently going to make somebody very unhappy.

Heymann's actions were unpalatable, but it's based on its own merits (using high-pressure tactics more appropriate for drug lords), not because someone else claimed he might later kill himself. Either way, Good was Swartz's own attorney, not a psychiatrist.

What I find much more concerning is that plea deal involving no jail time had been reached, and fell apart because of MIT. a) Why was MIT concerned that he serve time behind bars, and b) Why did the prosecution care that much what MIT thinks?

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#514

Post by mpyne »

jacquesm wrote: post #508
mpyne wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you been in prison? I've been in a submerged metal tube for some number of months. In many respects it's a worse environment than prison (though I can at least vouch for my fellow "inmates"). No email, no internet, no sleep, the stupid periscope watch with hydraulic oil dripping on your face. Of course, I chose to do that. I would think that aaronsw knew that some nominal prison term would be a possibility of…

> I've been in a submerged metal tube for some number of months. In many respects it's a worse environment than prison (though I can at least vouch for my fellow "inmates"). I think a big difference with prison is that prison is not voluntary.

> I think a big difference with prison is that prison is not voluntary

I tried to note that, but to be more clear: If you voluntarily take actions, over a long period of time, that involve the possibility of prison as a direct consequence of those actions, then I don't think you get to act completely surprised or indignant.

It's the reason I didn't complain too much (then or now) about my "plight"; as you say, I chose to be there.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#515

Post by illuminate »

derleth wrote: post #494
illuminate wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In my experience, any mention of the idea that men can be raped by women, for example, gets shouted down by 'feminists'" Like I said, there's no need to craft Straw Feminists from whole cloth. Make your points without these fabrications.

> Like I said, there's no need to craft Straw Feminists from whole cloth. Make your points without these fabrications. I'm not lying and your need to claim I am damages your case. An example from Reddit, which is very much the non-academic Real World I've been talking about: ImaLamer: > As someone who was raped by a woman, while drinking, something you've put full responsibility on her for in other comments, you quic…

"An example from Reddit, which is very much the non-academic Real World I've been talking about:"

Seeing as they did not state what you claim that they did, you still lack for example.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#516

Post by encoderer »

pygy_ wrote: post #447
Permit wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Push anyone far enough and they'll take their own life. This is ridiculous hindsight bias, people have been charged with far more than Aaron and didn't kill themselves. Aaron had been depressed for a long time leading up to all of this, yet everyone seems to argue that the prosecution is what did it and he would have been completely fine otherwise. They have nothing to base that off of, but that's still the case tha…

Ridiculous? Eat it! Hindsight bias, not really either, a plain old fact. Some people are more resistant than others, but at some point anyone will snap (for the toughest it may require severe sleep deprivation and torture, but most people have a much lower threshold). I didn't know Aaron Swartz, and I am thus not familiar with the details of his alleged depressive past. There are usually a lot of factors that bring p…

> FWIW I hold a MD

It's not worth much in this discussion.

Your logic here is fuzzy man. Asserting that everyone has a point at which they will kill themselves? Maybe you're basing this on knowing that YOU have a point at which you'd take your own life.

But what in the thousands of years of human suffering gives you this certainty that "everybody" has this suicidal breaking point?

You can't make an assertion into a "plain old fact" just by repeating it.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#517

Post by justin66 »

JasonFruit wrote: post #328
encoderer wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I up-voted his original comment I would do so again. Aaron knew what he was doing. There are many charities more deserving than his legal defense fund -- that isn't changed just because he was apparently mentally ill enough to take his own life. There should be a high burden you have to overcome to successfully find crowd-funding for anything including a legal defense.

Exactly. While he may have been being put under undue pressure, I disagreed with his actions, his reasoning, and his approach, and so I didn't think his legal defense was worth my money. That doesn't mean I don't regret his death, but his death wouldn't change my action in an analogous situation tomorrow.

I'm actually in the same position: I didn't give any money to the guy's legal defense fund and I think any rational assessment of my budget and the merits of the case would result in the same decision if I had it all to do over. I don't think that is really the point, though.

There's a world of difference between choosing not to help someone or some cause when they need it - a choice we all make, passively or actively, all the time - and mocking them and encouraging others not to help. That's just kicking a guy when he's down. That's the part some of us find really objectionable.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#519

Post by davorak »

djt wrote: post #442
davorak wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How should people who though like you and ed act differently now? Aaron did not receive enough help on his defense bills. This likely part of the reason he is now dead, but only part of it. Given this how should actions change, if at all? If you think the world would be better if people that held similar opinions to you ed's were slightly different, how should they be different and what argument would have moved you…

If his opinions have changed then he is free to express that. People say and do things relying on the information they have at that time. I didn't write anything because it was just a gut thought, which is why I didn't donate. I'm sure that if Aaron had told his side of the story then it would have hurt him in court, but it may have garnered him public interest and funds. For his immense abilities, Aaron made a lot o…

Thanks for give detail and frank answer.

> Witch hunts only create a quick fix to our need to rationalise our anger and pain.

They are, at least sometimes, more then just that though. They can arise out of desire to make the world different so the same problem does not happen again, or to change community standards, and/or ones own judgment heuristics. Ultimately ineffective and undesired nonetheless. It is hard to come up with solutions that have a quick enough feedback to satisfy short attention spams as much as a which hunt will unfortunately.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#520

Post by analog »

mpyne wrote: post #513
analog wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The prosecutors were told he was a suicide risk. “The thing that galls me is that I told Heymann the kid was a suicide risk,” Good told me. “His reaction was a standard reaction in that office, not unique to Steve. He said, ‘Fine, we’ll lock him up.’ I’m not saying they made Aaron kill himself. Aaron might have done this anyway. I’m saying they were aware of the risk, and they were heedless. http://www.bostonglobe.co…

Bradley Manning was claimed to be a suicide risk and thereby placed on suicide prevention watch, under conditions so severe that the military judge overseeing the case later gave a reduction on any eventual sentence based on his initial treatment. So no matter what you do you're apparently going to make somebody very unhappy. Heymann's actions were unpalatable, but it's based on its own merits (using high-pressure ta…

Oh please, like the way Schwartz or Manning were treated are the only two options?

If you don't think Heymann sees this as a win then you're beyond naive.

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