Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows • Hacker News Board

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#121

Post by dhimes » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

simias wrote: post #112

kybernetyk wrote: post #24

The crapware situation on Windows is horrible. I'm a Mac/Linux user but from time to time I have to power up my Windows VM. A few days ago I wanted to install the Partition Magic trial on my Win XP VM. Having left Windows around 2005 I figured that typing "Partition Magic Win XP download" in Google would be helpful. I got a handful of "reputable" download sources like CNet and the like. I went there and was bombarded…

Yeah, I share the same experience: I'm mostly a linux user who had to setup a windows machine not long ago. Even when installing legit software from what appeared to be legit sources I had to be very careful at every step in order to avoid all the spyware/toolbars/dubious extensions bundled with the installers. The worst offender was some crapware installer that wanted you to check the components you didn't wan't ins…

I recall that the java yahoo toolbar has been there since Sun.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#122

Post by rdl » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

edandersen wrote: post #106

rdl wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing to keep in mind is that YC funds groups. If a team is funded to do one thing, then pivots to doing something else later, it's not like YC is going to de-fund you. (I don't know anything about this specific company)

Surely that can be abused? What could this group have possibly pivoted from? http://www.installmonetizer.com/AT_aboutus.php Plus there are photos of them at YC with their company logo above - they clearly did not pivot.

I actually think there's a lot of legitimate room in the "help developers make money" space. There are also a lot of ways to do it as a scam. I don't know the specifics of this company at all. If they pitched to YC as "we're building something to help developers make money, which is a problem due to ...", that's potentially legitimate. Desktop ads are clearly ok; PPI generally not ok.

I think you could even do PPI in a decent way. e.g. if I were installing a developer tool and got a "get 3 months of free developer VPN/backup/design/whatever service" offer as well via "click here to install", I wouldn't feel cheated or scammed.

Toolbars and AV clearly are generally scams, but there are businesses which involve signup or client software installation which have high enough LTV to justify this channel.

I think a YC and silicon valley funded company who was doing this kind of thing would be a lot more likely to go the legit route than someone who came from the spam world.

I'm definitely more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt as another YC person, but mostly because I have no idea if they're good or bad based on what I've seen from them.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#123

Post by api » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

rpm4321 wrote: post #115

jbk wrote: post #49

I can speak quite a bit about this "industry": We (VLC) receive 1 of those offers per day. They are liars, shady business, IP violators and are downright dangerous. They have all those great offers for you, but they refuse to give any details as soon as you ask any question. More than half of them are "the biggest in the world" (sic). They lie about download numbers, about download size, about number of software actu…

You may be right about the industry as a whole, but I'm betting you're wrong about this particular instance based on what I know about PG and YC. When I was reading the original TC article, I was thinking that there is actually an incredible opportunity here to create a legitimate ad network that would allow desktop developers to monetize similarly to how it's done on the web - to basically become the DoubleClick of…

Desktop apps with built-in ads are okay. I've used a few here and there. I've also seen shareware model software that has ads that can be turned off by registering. That's fine too. In this case the ads are part of the application. They live within it. Uninstall the app, and the ads are gone. Such ads also tend not to invade users' privacy outside the app. They might send stuff about what you do in the app, but if you don't like it you can uninstall the app.

One of the key words here is "toolbar." It's in the same class as "HIV," "ebola," "herpes simplex virus," etc. Saying you're bundling third-party adware such as toolbars and "browser helpers" and similar is like saying you're purposefully giving someone a disease.

IT professionals managing Windows networks spend god-awful amounts of time removing such junk from Windows PCs. Not only do things like this invade privacy, they often slow down and break peoples' computers.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#124

Post by chii » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

rpm4321 wrote: post #115

jbk wrote: post #49

I can speak quite a bit about this "industry": We (VLC) receive 1 of those offers per day. They are liars, shady business, IP violators and are downright dangerous. They have all those great offers for you, but they refuse to give any details as soon as you ask any question. More than half of them are "the biggest in the world" (sic). They lie about download numbers, about download size, about number of software actu…

You may be right about the industry as a whole, but I'm betting you're wrong about this particular instance based on what I know about PG and YC. When I was reading the original TC article, I was thinking that there is actually an incredible opportunity here to create a legitimate ad network that would allow desktop developers to monetize similarly to how it's done on the web - to basically become the DoubleClick of…

i agree - i wouldn't mind a text ad next to my unarchiving tool (which i don't use all that often so as to not justify payuing for one). But they need to be unobtrusive like google's text ads.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#125

Post by to3m » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 2:35 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #105

kybernetyk wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt the installer/websites would have behaved much different if I have had used Windows 7 or 8.

Your doubt is unfounded. http://www.symantec.com/connect/forums/partition-magic-windo... Your research, poor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PartitionMagic And your characterization of the Windows ecosystem based upon your experience either ignorant, disingenuous, or blindly biased. http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/apps

I suspect Partition Magic is intended merely as an example of the crapware-and-misleading-download-buttons trend. You can spot similar scamminess on (for example) http://getpaint.net/ and http://tortoisesvn.net/.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#126

Post by ditoa » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 2:37 PM UTC

josteink wrote: post #39

btipling wrote: post #6

Winzip and Nero use the Ask Partner Network (I used to work there on the Ask Toolbar) to monetize their free software, so that is probably where that first email came from. http://apn.ask.com/ There's also conduit: http://toolbar.conduit.com/

> Winzip and Nero use the Ask Partner Network Sadly, on Windows even Oracle's Java has the ASK toolbar. Almost nobody has any pride left on the Windows-platform, user-abuse is rampant, almost expected. It's killing the platform and there's nothing Microsoft can do about it.

Only the Java installer stub (online installer) has the ASK toolbar prompt, the offline installer does not.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#127

Post by slavak » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 2:37 PM UTC

archangel_one wrote: post #58

kybernetyk wrote: post #24

The crapware situation on Windows is horrible. I'm a Mac/Linux user but from time to time I have to power up my Windows VM. A few days ago I wanted to install the Partition Magic trial on my Win XP VM. Having left Windows around 2005 I figured that typing "Partition Magic Win XP download" in Google would be helpful. I got a handful of "reputable" download sources like CNet and the like. I went there and was bombarded…

Yes, I've run afoul of the "download button" adverts before. I'm not surprised to see them on torrent sites etc, but it amazes me that some supposedly reputable download sites would allow such things.

This is why I have no moral qualms about using AdBlock on most of the internet. I made the mistake of disabling it on one such download site once, and it took me a while to find the actual download link in the mess of DOWNLOAD! ads. Then I went back to having plenty of whitespace on that page...

For me blocking advertisements online is no longer about blacklisting bad sites, but whitelisting the few good ones I want to support.

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#128

Post by dhimes » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 2:38 PM UTC

Matsta wrote: post #116

Ok, I think one thing I don't think people fully understand is how these companies actually make their money back. Now in the past they will either try to sell you something or get you to fill in a CPA offer. Now 2012 has hit the IM/Internet Marketing industry hard mainly because people aren't spending money as much as they used to. Like I mentioned in another comment, basically the whole CPA industry is going belly…

I'm not following- how do they get paid?

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#129

Post by josteink » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 2:39 PM UTC

eli wrote: post #92

josteink wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Winzip and Nero use the Ask Partner Network Sadly, on Windows even Oracle's Java has the ASK toolbar. Almost nobody has any pride left on the Windows-platform, user-abuse is rampant, almost expected. It's killing the platform and there's nothing Microsoft can do about it.

Isn't this what they're doing about it? http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/apps

I was considering mentioning Windows RT/Windows 8 and it's "Metro" (Modern) app-store. but decided that I wouldn't. Not because I didn't think about it, not because I wasn't aware of it, but because I decided that so far it seems not to be a very effective means to the end of salvaging Windows' reputation.

Especially given how the "Metro" platform so far seemingly have caused more negative user-feedback than positive-feedback, I'm not sure this counts as Microsoft "being able to do something about it".

Re: Y Combinator is funding the future of spam in Windows

#130

Post by lmm » Tue, Jan 15, 2013, 2:39 PM UTC

api wrote: post #119

jbk wrote: post #49

I can speak quite a bit about this "industry": We (VLC) receive 1 of those offers per day. They are liars, shady business, IP violators and are downright dangerous. They have all those great offers for you, but they refuse to give any details as soon as you ask any question. More than half of them are "the biggest in the world" (sic). They lie about download numbers, about download size, about number of software actu…

A lot of people these days are bashing Apple and Google for creating walled gardens with their app stores, but this is really the primary reason such walled gardens have taken off. They offer a mostly crapware-free experience. If Linux on the desktop were to get popular, I'd hate to imagine what might happen to the open source Fedora and Debian/Ubuntu repositories.

Linux would probably do better because few people have any reason to stray outside their distribution's repositories. And these repositories are just as rigorous in their way as the Apple or Google walled gardens; Debian packages have to be signed by the GPG key of a debian maintainer who takes personal responsibility for that package, and whose identify has been verified by having their key signed by another debian member (with a chain that presumably goes all the way back to the original founders). I'm not aware of any cases of a debian maintainer being "struck off", but I'm sure there'll be procedures in place.

You would get plenty of shady sites encouraging you to add another line to /etc/apt/sources.list for cool free screensavers, but it would be a lot more practical than it is in windows to tell people to ignore them and never install anything that doesn't come with the system.