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Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

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Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#411
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is more a statement of probabilities, do I know thats what pushed him of the edge of course not, is likely to have played a significant role, I think yes. It does not have to be all or nothing to change my opinion and my future actions.

You can call outside speculation "a statement of probabilities" in an attempt to make it seem legitimate, but that doesn't make you correct. Dressing up speculation doesn't change what it is.

I am confused on how you think the information should be used to change ones opinion and future actions. Do you think there should be zero influence?

> but that doesn't make you correct.

My aim was not to be 100% correct about Arron, but rather to on average be more correct with similar cases.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#412
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that IF you believe Ed's initial post was unjust, then you believe he's responsible for an unjust -- i.e. immoral -- action. And if you believe that his statement possibly led to removing moral (and financial!) sanction from Aaron, then you're going to have to hold him responsible for that too. The argument that he could have had the foresight to not do what he did is a separate matter.

"IF you believe Ed's initial post was unjust, then you believe he's responsible for an unjust" I think I understand but to be clear you are saying that because he is a top commenter, and can change the opinions of others, on HN he needs to be especially careful and restrict what he says? (For the record I don't have a problem with what he wrote as I read it.)

No, I'm not saying he needs to be "careful," I'm saying he needs to be just, and I think else everyone does too (including those who upvote unjust remarks). It's certainly not just him I'm talking about, and if it were only him who engaged in immoral behavior like this, then Aaron never would have been in the spot he was in in the first place. We live in a sick, depraved culture, and Ed's remarks are just one among millions.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Feminism benefits men as well. It depends on how it's applied, doesn't it? > Patriarchy DOES exist to the detriment to men Thank you for restating my point. > your anger is misapplied. How? I don't understand how my anger is misapplied here.

"> Feminism benefits men as well. It depends on how it's applied, doesn't it?" Destroying systems of entrenched privilege may not be viewed as beneficial by all men that cling to these systems, no. But equality does provide for a healthier system, if one appreciates women healthy in mind and body. Harping on straw "Feminists" won't improve our situation.

> Harping on straw "Feminists" won't improve our situation.

Mentioning they exist is not the same as harping on them.

And this points out an asymmetry: Whenever a man focuses on the male perspective of gender equality, people drag out the 'MRA' stereotype. While the stereotypical MRA exists, that stereotype is no more relevant to the issue than the stereotypical straw feminist is relevant to the female perspective of gender equality. Yet, online, in the real world outside of the academy, that MRA stereotype is in constant use.

> Destroying systems of entrenched privilege may not be viewed as beneficial by all men that cling to these systems

And this is an example. It states that gender equality from the female perspective is automatically equivalent to "Destroying systems of entrenched privilege", which is a courtesy not given to the male perspective on the same concepts.

This asymmetry is divisive and serves to perpetuate the pointless hatred that keeps equality from being realized.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An honest appraisal? That is one way of looking at it. Another way is he threw out a giant derogatory 'Meh' to someone asking for help. Does he bear responsibility for what happened to Aaron? No, but it is also not hard to see how the top ranked comment from a respected member didn't carry some weight in how people perceived Aaron and his situation. The big take away here is that words matter and maybe if you don't h…

I up-voted his original comment I would do so again. Aaron knew what he was doing. There are many charities more deserving than his legal defense fund -- that isn't changed just because he was apparently mentally ill enough to take his own life. There should be a high burden you have to overcome to successfully find crowd-funding for anything including a legal defense.

"Aaron knew what he was doing"

...and at the time, I said the same thing I am saying now: Aaron Swartz was doing the right thing and should be praised for being brave enough to try to use access to a university to make human knowledge available to others. When universities are in the business of punishing people who spread knowledge, there is a serious problem with society, and Aaron knew that -- and unlike most people, he went out and tried to do something about it.

I was angry when the prosecutor tacked the extra charges on. I am just as angry today.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#415
post #401
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may or may not have something to say about this, but not here, and not now. Can we please just let the family grieve? We are the family.

Oh, he's suddenly so thoughtful and considerate. I think edw519 is a common example of a celebrity case who feels obliged to condescend his important opinion on any mildly prominent case, in a know-it-all, bold manner. And there's no lack of readily available supporters willing to nod and upvote their idol. I have respect for his technical background, but with fame comes a greater responsibility, which not many carry…

edw519 is one of those people who thinks it is his duty to order everyone around. Unfortunately, this kind of anal character gets a lot of upvotes on HN.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is this bit: "It is better to ask forgiveness than to ask for permission". This especially holds true if you're up against what we'll loosely label the establishment here, especially if said establishment is capable of marshalling serious force against you. Once it's done it's done, but during the execution phase just getting the job over with is often the smartest course of action. See the PACER incident for h…

I'm not sure that this forgiveness vs. permission rule works well with civil or criminal law...

It has worked well for me so far. Of course it always does until it no longer works so this is just another instance of survivor bias. Unfortunately for poor Aaron it did not work out well for him.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about saying your sorry. Someone was asking for help and mr. edw519, just spit in his face with such absurd comments. Lets take a step back. Would you spit in the face of someone asking for help. What type of patronizing comments did edw519 make? He still hasn't said sorry and that tells me all I need to know about him and his ego. Shame on the members that supported edw519

edw519 is allowed to have an opinion, and his opinion does not, at least to me, seem unreasonable. Not everyone is going to agree with your civil disobedience actions, or you asking for help with the consequences. That doesn't make them bad people, or wrong people, for saying they don't like your approach, think you should accept consequences, or whatever else. For example, MLK didn't hate the clergymen that disagree…

>Not everyone is going to agree with your civil disobedience actions

No, but those who don't support, say, MLK Jr., deserve to be shamed for their regressive attitude.

Practically speaking, the forces of regression are always louder and stronger than the voices for progress. But if we don't denounce and shame those regressive voices, then the voices for progress end up feeling so alone and unloved.

The truth about HN is that there are a lot of selfish, money-grubbing, right-wing people here who would happily shit all over Aaron because Aaron was a left-wing activist.

It's not okay to let these regressive, conservative figures steal the spotlight. If you don't support Aaron's actions, you don't deserve civility. You are beneath contempt and deserve to be spat on, insulted, publically humiliated, like any common racist, bigot, anti-abolitionist, or Ancieme Regime blue blood. Right-wingers simply deserve shame and mockery and if progressive people would hold the conservatives in our midst to standards of human decency, then those conservatives wouldn't be winning the day and our most powerful and successful left-wing activists like Aaron would be less likely to kill themselves.

Aaron literally sacrificed himself for the sake of the species and the response from HN was "fuck Aaron. What did he ever do to help MY bottom line?"

These right-wing assholes on HN should be shamed just like we used to shame racists, sexists, eugenicists, Nazis.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#418
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was known well in advance of that thread asking for help on HN that Aaron was facing major prison time from the prosecution by the feds, and we also knew a fairly detailed description of his 'crime', i.e. how he didn't really commit one.

6-8 months is not "major" prison time by any reasonable definition of that term. Using upper limits only for theoretically possible court sentences is the same tactic the RIAA/MPAA uses to characterize copyright infringement damages, and it's just as much of a propaganda tactic in support of aaronsw as it is in support of those clowns.

> 6-8 months is not "major" prison time by any reasonable definition of that term.

That sounds like plenty 'major' for me. Have you been in prison? I have been in 'lock-up' for about 6 hours for the terrible crime of driving a foreign car in the Netherlands. I can tell you I did not enjoy it one little bit and the prospect of doing that 6 to 8 months would change me in ways that I would prefer not to think about. Jail is not funny, and multiple months are horrible, forget about years.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Either you are new here, in which case you don't know Ed well enough to be leaving comments like this one, or you are a troll, or you are a regular member hiding behind a newly-created anonymous account. Either way, stop it.

well this is a newly created account, but I've been here for four years. I remember when people were missing comments by nicb, when patio11 wasn't a lead karma recipient. Ed fucked up man. And as I've said it now in three other comments, this guy sold a freaking book of his comments from this exact site . I've been an asshole. I've said things I really, really shouldn't have. But the people calling for Ed to publicly…

1. Ed did not "fuck up". He posted his opinion. I don't -- and didn't -- agree with it, but that does not make him a bad person. And, by the way, you are right now committing the exact same sin as you are accusing him of, which makes you a hypocrite to boot. If there is any discussion worth having here, it is not about that specific comment, it is about the tone and personality of this site.

2. He sold a book of things that people found insightful. So what? I have a collection of Robert Fulghum's short works, what's the difference really?

3. You're being an asshole right now.

4. The people calling for Ed to publicly apologize are misguided, at best. The only reason that they are even aware of that comment is because it ended up on TechCrunch, and how many of those people are, themselves, guilty of the accusations that they would levy against another respected member here? Once again, the only productive thing that could come from all of this colossal stupidity would be for HN to collectively reconsider its tone and personality.

5. Part of the etiquette here is that if you are going to accuse someone of wrongdoing, you bloody well ought to at least put your name behind it. Whether you agree with that or not, those are the rules here. Using anonymous accounts to spew hatred towards other people is cowardly, at best.

6. My reply to fermule had nothing to do with his internet points, and everything to do with the fact that his comments are so stupid, so inciteful, that either they are the work of a troll or of a member that should know better, or someone from somewhere else on the internet that doesn't know better. What I find most abhorrent about HN at this moment is that fermule's comments currently have a net positive score, despite being almost perfectly identical to the kind of garbage that you'd expect to find on Reddit.

Re: Aaron Swartz, Asking For Help, 119 Days Ago

#420
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more cynical observation is that users with high "karma" point totals earn this by parroting the majority opinion or otherwise treating comment threads as a game.

If you think it was easy for Ed to post what he did about Aaron's legal troubles, you don't understand the sentiment on HN at all. He posted that comment because that's what he believed at the time.

and what sentiment is that? Do you have any real, reliable metric since pg removed the display of karma? Dude, you are one of the people whose comments I bookmark. But this is horseshit. Ed has ensconced himself as some hacker-poet here. He's got quite a following. And the comment in question, the one this entire thread is about, was extremely callous. And all the more so since it assumed Aaron had a boatload of money that he didn't actually have. I think it was very easy for him to post that. I think its as easy for him as it is for you, who posts constantly, and often, especially these days, with a very noticeable derisive edge. Defend your friend by all means, but don't expect to be high handed and moral about it. The prevailing sentiment in this thread is the perfect echo for the current "HN sentiment".
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