Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office • Hacker News Board

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#151

Post by rdl » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 6:26 AM UTC

jordanb wrote: post #40

danso wrote: post #10

Some more context about the prosecutor: She was named "Bostonian of the Year" for her successful cases against mob bosses and drug companies: http://www.mainjustice.com/2012/01/03/massachusetts-u-s-atto... Out of the 94 U.S. DA offices, her office alone collected ~67% of the total criminal and civil fines in 2012, mostly owing to the successful prosecution of drug companies. Her success led to speculation that she wo…

Honestly I don't care if she spends her nights and weekends caring for orphans and war widows. She's a politician who treated Aaron Swartz as a pawn in the political game she is playing. No doubt she intended for her campaign for governor to describe her as a "staunch defender of intellectual property rights" who, as prosecutor, put a "dangerous hacker behind bars" for "breaking into MIT and stealing millions of doll…

Yeah, the result of ending her career is both to punish her, and to establish a precedent so all future US Attorneys are appropriately concerned that if they commit egregious violations of the public trust and their oath of office, even if technically in compliance with the law, public outcry will lead to their dismissal and a career working in food service.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#152

Post by rdl » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 6:28 AM UTC

edouard1234567 wrote: post #97

dantheman wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree, when people realize the risk is personal they'll take care to make sure what they're doing is right. Just following orders is never a valid excuse. Of course we should stop with the prosecutor we should continue on to try and fix the machine, but at the very least if prosecutors know they're responsible for their actions it'll add an additional check to the system.

I think you meant -> "we SHOULDN'T" stop with the prosecutor.

Stephen P. Heymann, AUSA, too.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#153

Post by shiven » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 6:39 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #149

shiven wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like this is, actually. No, so not like this, actually. How many software engineers or their professional peers have been nudged, pushed or shoved into committing suicide because of a broken build? No, really? When a person in position of authority is maliciously responsible for driving people to the brink of suicide and then some, they need to be held to a higher standard because of the very position they hold.…

> How many software engineers or their professional peers have been nudged, pushed or shoved into committing suicide because of a broken build? It wasn't my shitty analogy to begin with. You're missing the point: getting one prosecutor fired won't change anything, because everyone above and below that prosecutor will continue operating the exact same way.

getting one prosecutor fired won't change anything

Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. But de-throning that one prosecutor will, in her own words, serve as a message [0] to others of her kind that reckless, power-drunk actions have real-world repercussions.

[0] http://www.justice.gov/usao/ma/news/2011/December/EremianVer...

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#154

Post by wwweston » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 7:06 AM UTC

lmkg wrote: post #26

While Cameron Ortiz' actions towards Aaron Swartz were unjust, I think that she is receiving an unduly large share of the ire, and as a result, several other agents and factors in this scenario are receiving an unduly small share. While I don't particularly want to defend her, I believe that a) justice is never served well by a lynch mob b) other actors are more deserving of blame , and by focusing on Ortiz we give t…

>Creating just laws is not her responsibility, it is someone else's.

She has neither the power nor responsibility to legislate, that's true enough. She definitely has discretion in her office as a prosecutor, though, as executive offices tend to have. That discretion is supposed to be one of the things that makes a system with separated powers more resistant to abuse, and she and every other prosecutor are absolutely obligated to use it responsibly.

> by focusing on Ortiz we give them a get-out-of-jail-free card that involves throwing her under the bus.

Many prosecutors seem to think that making high profile examples out of someone serves a deterring purpose. Given what's currently known about the prosecution in the case, I can only assume Ortiz and those who worked for her shared that view. To the extent that it's true, I'd say it's more than fair that the careers of those in question could serve as a bright and burning example of that principle.

And that's far kinder than they've been: using the powers society granted them, they threatened to effectively end Swartz' life with 50 years in prison, and may have played a direct role in his actual death. The only discussion occurring here is about whether they would continue their careers ... not whether they'd continue to have everyday freedom of not being incarcerated.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#155

Post by jowiar » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 7:19 AM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #106

jowiar wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is a useless message to send. People make mistakes. Period. A system which is not robust to people making mistakes is disastrously broken.

And people are expected to pay when they make mistakes. Period.

I severely disagree with this, and find it one of the most destructive mentalities persistent in society.

I have a good friend whose father was abusive, and a perfectionist. My friend, as a consequence, holds everyone to an impossible standard - most of all herself - and it's sad to watch, especially given that she's one of the most brilliant, passionate, hard-working people I know. When you expect and demand perfection from people, you will only be let down.

I believe people are well intentioned, but fallible, and demanding retribution for every failing is just a pretty crappy way to go through life. I am very willing to forgive, and only hope that, in my life, others will forgive me when I don't do right (and I'm under no illusions that I always do the right thing)

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#156

Post by jowiar » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 7:24 AM UTC

jlgreco wrote: post #127

jowiar wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is a useless message to send. People make mistakes. Period. A system which is not robust to people making mistakes is disastrously broken.

Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice. If you get drunk, hop in your car, and accidentally kill some people, then guess what? It doesn't matter if it was an accident. If your "accident" is big enough, it becomes indistinguishable from malice and you get held accountable.

And yet, even given DUI laws of varying (arguably insufficient) harshness people still drive drunk. 20 years from now or so, when self-driving cars are the norm, DUI will thankfully be a relic of the past, and many lives will be saved.

Change the system.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#157

Post by newman314 » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 7:55 AM UTC

jowiar wrote: post #155

Turing_Machine wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people are expected to pay when they make mistakes. Period.

I severely disagree with this, and find it one of the most destructive mentalities persistent in society. I have a good friend whose father was abusive, and a perfectionist. My friend, as a consequence, holds everyone to an impossible standard - most of all herself - and it's sad to watch, especially given that she's one of the most brilliant, passionate, hard-working people I know. When you expect and demand perfect…

Say, someone accidentally runs one of your family members over. Would you be satisfied with a "Oops, my bad"?

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#158

Post by newman314 » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 7:59 AM UTC

jowiar wrote: post #76

w1ntermute wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the good she's done doesn't matter, because when you're a prosecutor, all it takes is one mistake and you've could have blood on your hands. Firing her would send a message to other prosecutors that mistakes will not be tolerated.

Which is a useless message to send. People make mistakes. Period. A system which is not robust to people making mistakes is disastrously broken.

Accidentally spelling "shear" when you intended "sheer" is a mistake.

Accidentally convicting someone for rape with a life sentence (due to bad due process) is ALSO a mistake.

There is a big difference in magnitude AND consequence.

Unless you are willing to label Aaron as just "collateral damage"?

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#159

Post by overgard » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 8:02 AM UTC

rprasad wrote: post #77

Zero percent chance of this happening: - She did her job, which is to enforce the laws as they are written. - She is very good at doing that job. - You will not get her fired on the basis of enforcing a law on the books where the law has not been found unconstitutional nor even had its constitutionality seriously questioned. You want a petition that might have some value? Petition the white house to change the laws o…

I don't think this is really about it practically happening. (I mean I'd love for it to, but it's a pipe dream).

This is symbolic. It's our way of saying "fuck you" to the people responsible. The more people that sign this, the bigger the metaphorical middle finger.

Look, realistically, as concerned citizens there isn't a lot we can do here, but one thing we can do is publicly shame the people responsible for this and bring visibility to something that would otherwise go unacknowledged.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#160

Post by philwelch » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 8:11 AM UTC

shiven wrote: post #153

philwelch wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many software engineers or their professional peers have been nudged, pushed or shoved into committing suicide because of a broken build? It wasn't my shitty analogy to begin with. You're missing the point: getting one prosecutor fired won't change anything, because everyone above and below that prosecutor will continue operating the exact same way.

getting one prosecutor fired won't change anything Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. But de-throning that one prosecutor will, in her own words, serve as a message [0] to others of her kind that reckless, power-drunk actions have real-world repercussions. [0] http://www.justice.gov/usao/ma/news/2011/December/EremianVer...

The federal government is more or less designed to function by sacrificing pawns over these kinds of controversies without ever addressing the policies, cultures, or root causes that led to those controversies in the first place. And this goes all the way up to the cabinet level. Sacking one federal prosecutor will do nothing. Even sacking Eric Holder wouldn't change anything--I can't remember a single attorney general who was worth a damn and the first one I remember is Janet Reno.