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Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

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121–130 of 251 posts

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#121
post #112
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point vis a vis "fix the machine, not the person". The tactics described in the petition are ingrained in the US justice system. Getting rid of a single prosecutor isn't going to change a damn thing because the injustices are systemic, not the product of a vindictive individual. Like Aaron said, shouting at the gears isn't going to fix the machine.

Like Aaron said, shouting at the gears isn't going to fix the machine. But excising the broken, unfit, insidiously malicious gear from the machine will make said machine one gear short of harming the innocent-until-proven-guilty.

There are ten thousand gears coming out of law school every year. It won't make a difference.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#122
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A young man is dead because Carmen M. Ortiz unambiguously railroaded him. Frankly the ignorance and tenor of her prosecution in this area makes me much less likely to believe that all those other people she fined and jailed were bad guys. That is: in the one area we do know - computer science - we can see that she pursued trumped up charges. So maybe a forensic accountant would be able to explain that in her past ris…

Actually a young man is dead because he killed himself.

Actually if they drained his accounts and froze his assets and promised to shove in him a prison with hardened criminals for up to 50 years, where he could face assaults, rape and abuse (more so probably than the average hardened street criminal) killing himself didn't seem like such an irrational choice.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#124
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I don't know if it would move the copyright reform question along. Copyright is very broken in a number of ways but there is broad consensus in people I've talked to that it is especially broken with regards to public records and science research. In the best of all possible worlds Aaron would have been acquitted with a landmark decision that said "this use of copyright in rent seeking behavior on documents…

Devil's advocate here. If Carmen actually agreed that Aaron's actions were not a crime, but wanted most of all to set a precedent, could that not explain her actions without malice? Maybe she was ideologically on Aaron's side, but recognized that a weak or cancelled prosecution would not yield a useful precedent. If she demonstrated a strong case and lost, it would send a message that Americans don't agree with stric…

"could that not explain her actions without malice?" You should look up the definition of malice because that describes her actions nicely.

    The intention or desire to do evil; ill will.
    Wrongful intention, esp. as increasing the guilt of certain offenses.
Synonyms spite - malevolence - rancour - rancor - malignity

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#125
post #26

While Cameron Ortiz' actions towards Aaron Swartz were unjust, I think that she is receiving an unduly large share of the ire, and as a result, several other agents and factors in this scenario are receiving an unduly small share. While I don't particularly want to defend her, I believe that a) justice is never served well by a lynch mob b) other actors are more deserving of blame , and by focusing on Ortiz we give t…

There are several supposedly built-in safeguards to protect our country's citizens from abuse, inflicted by the government.

One is the law. The idea that representatives that people elect will end up creating just laws.

If that fucks up, then ...

Prosecutors who prosecute on behalf of the state (as in country here, US, not necessarily a specific state) can chose not to prosecute a case. If they have a teenager who smuggled a little pot from Mexico or they have a white collar embezzlement case of $10M, the hope is that they will go after the embezzlement case.

If this gets fucked up, (as did in this case), then...

It comes to the jury of peers. They jury can choose not to convict.

So it is not as mechanistic as "it is the law, the law was broken, therefore in every instance someone should be punished according to that law". And to fix something, the only way to do it is to overturn the law. There are actually multiple places to put the fix in.

> I do not place much blame on her for prosecuting according to an unjust law.

I do place the blame on her for choosing this case over another case. That is the real issue here. Forget perhaps that as techies many of us personally feel more connected to Aaron. Forget about that for a second. Look at it from the tax payer's point of view. We bank-roll the prosecution of these cases. Is picking this case from the pile and saying "Pedal to the metal with this one. We'll fucking bury this kid" make sense vs picking other cases.

But you see, this case was picked. And I want to know why. And I want to know why was the prosecution so keen and so fervent in this case. This kind of passion does _NOT_ come randomly and I also doubt they have a random-spin-the-wheel-next-case-picker. These decisions, ( I am guessing here) are heavily politically motivated. At least as a tax payer I am owed an explanation as to how the process works.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#126
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like Aaron said, shouting at the gears isn't going to fix the machine. But excising the broken, unfit, insidiously malicious gear from the machine will make said machine one gear short of harming the innocent-until-proven-guilty.

There are ten thousand gears coming out of law school every year. It won't make a difference.

It won't make a difference.

If engineers started getting sacked for breaking the build, you can be damned sure people would get very scrupulous about only committing working code, whether they're fresh out of school or greybeards.

No, it's not a perfect analogy, but I don't think it needs to be.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#127
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the good she's done doesn't matter, because when you're a prosecutor, all it takes is one mistake and you've could have blood on your hands. Firing her would send a message to other prosecutors that mistakes will not be tolerated.

Which is a useless message to send. People make mistakes. Period. A system which is not robust to people making mistakes is disastrously broken.

Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

If you get drunk, hop in your car, and accidentally kill some people, then guess what? It doesn't matter if it was an accident. If your "accident" is big enough, it becomes indistinguishable from malice and you get held accountable.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#128
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A young man is dead because Carmen M. Ortiz unambiguously railroaded him. Frankly the ignorance and tenor of her prosecution in this area makes me much less likely to believe that all those other people she fined and jailed were bad guys. That is: in the one area we do know - computer science - we can see that she pursued trumped up charges. So maybe a forensic accountant would be able to explain that in her past ris…

>The RIAA/MPAA would love to have her. She's way too toxic for business. She's got her federal pension and probably a long future in politics. Unless Obama throws her out, she's more or less set for life. Prosecutors don't get burned on stuff like this. Now if she cheated on her husband or said something bad about Jesus. This is also further proof that you can attack leftist political activists with impunity. At his…

You're being sensational and honestly rather rude. The left has dedicated programs just as the right does. If he was a tea party guy, he would basically be fighting for the same cause: an open government. You ought to keep in mind that the tea party started from the Ron Paul movement before it was, for all intents & purposes, hijacked by the traditional right.

The right and left often come together when it comes to restraining the rights of citizens (patriot act?). Don't demonize the right and put a halo around the left, it only serves to propagate the right/left paradigm that the Americans are already trapped in. We need the right & left coming together on open government issues. I feel good when politicians such as Dennis Kucinich come together with the libertarian-wing of the Right to push for things like Audit the Fed.

Finally, I find your comment rather ironic since it was the left who put this woman into power in 2009 and God knows she is, as you say, "protected". If Obama ever does come about this (doubtful), he will have all the excuses in the book ready for her pardon. The right was vehemently opposed to just about anyone the left selected, but perhaps if the right had their way, it wouldn't have been Carmen M Ortiz in power and maybe Aaron wouldn't be dead. But that's the kinda what-if talk that's just immature at the end of the day.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's like firing a US district attorney for deciding to put Martin Luther King in jail. And you can do more than one action.

It serves no one to make a single prosecutor the scapegoat for a whole system and a whole set of bad laws that need to be changed. There are a thousand prosecutors who are no better just waiting to take that job. We're going after Ortiz because we think it will satisfy our outrage and grief. That is exactly what I am worried about. I understand wanting to put a face on a tragedy like this, but we should be smarter th…

>It serves no one to make a single prosecutor the scapegoat for a whole system and a whole set of bad laws that need to be changed.

It sends a message that we are not satisfied with the way she ran her office.

>There are a thousand prosecutors who are no better just waiting to take that job.

Then they better learn from Ortiz's failure or be removed by the same process. Eventually someone will figure out that this kind of behavior is not acceptable.

>We're going after Ortiz because we think it will satisfy our outrage and grief.

No, I'm upset with Ortiz because this should not have happened. Absolutely no legitimate reason for them to pursue this if JSTOR has no problem.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#130
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I don't know if it would move the copyright reform question along. Copyright is very broken in a number of ways but there is broad consensus in people I've talked to that it is especially broken with regards to public records and science research. In the best of all possible worlds Aaron would have been acquitted with a landmark decision that said "this use of copyright in rent seeking behavior on documents…

Devil's advocate here. If Carmen actually agreed that Aaron's actions were not a crime, but wanted most of all to set a precedent, could that not explain her actions without malice? Maybe she was ideologically on Aaron's side, but recognized that a weak or cancelled prosecution would not yield a useful precedent. If she demonstrated a strong case and lost, it would send a message that Americans don't agree with stric…

I suspect that having a lost prosecution on her record would be more harmful to her own goals than helpful to the goals of any causes, so this explanation seems unlikely to me.
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