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Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

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Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#61

Post by creamyhorror »

pliu wrote: post #31

Quinn Norton: "It wasn't Carmen Ortiz that hounded Aaron to death, it was Steve Heymann. And the system that helped him do it: that was all of us." https://twitter.com/quinnnorton/status/290204205124304896 And Tim Carmody: "FWIW, Carmen Ortiz just runs the US Attorney's office in MA. Stephen Heymann is the Assistant US Attorney going hard after Aaron Swartz." https://twitter.com/tcarmody/status/290192055488094209

More info:

Aaron wasn’t so lucky with the JSTOR matter. The case was picked up by Assistant U.S. Attorney Steve Heymann in Boston, the cybercrime prosecutor who won a record 20-year prison stretch for TJX hacker Albert Gonzalez. Heymann indicted Aaron on 13 counts of wire fraud, computer intrusion and reckless damage.

-- Wired, http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/01/aaron-swartz/

In the area of computer crime, Mr. Heymann:

- Jointly brought the first federal prosecution of a juvenile computer hacker, who had electronically disabled a critical computer servicing the control tower of a regional airport.

- Supervised the prosecution of the first software pirate to be charged with free distribution of copyrighted software over the Internet.

-- http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/digitaldiscovery/biosfc.htm

Not that much public info available on the guy.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#62

Post by jlgreco »

harshreality wrote: post #57
OldSchool wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only a person of science or other black/white thinker would assume that law and procedure was an "essentially mechanical process." I once imagined it that way too. The very first thing a law student is taught is that everything is a grey area: laws are left vague deliberately in order to be interpreted by judges; evidence and procedure are negotiable; everything is subjective. The legal framework is only that, a fram…

What happens if you're in a grey area? You spend hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars defending yourself, and you might be found innocent of the more serious charges, but there's a good chance you'll be convicted on one or two minor charges. You're still out the money you payed to your lawyers, and the prosecutor gets to say, "We didn't get the outcome we wanted, but the evildoer was still held to account for…

Yeah, the reality for the accused is that the system is rather black and white. Either you are not on their radar... or you are fucked. How fucked you are is really the only gradient here.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#64

Post by dreamdu5t »

danso wrote: post #10

Some more context about the prosecutor: She was named "Bostonian of the Year" for her successful cases against mob bosses and drug companies: http://www.mainjustice.com/2012/01/03/massachusetts-u-s-atto... Out of the 94 U.S. DA offices, her office alone collected ~67% of the total criminal and civil fines in 2012, mostly owing to the successful prosecution of drug companies. Her success led to speculation that she wo…

Well by the justice departments own logic, we should end her career to send a message to other prosecutors. After all, that's what they would do.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#65

Post by jzwinck »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #58
jordanb wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ending her career would set a very clear precedent that other prosecutors would have no difficulty understanding. N'est pas?

Sure, but I don't know if it would move the copyright reform question along. Copyright is very broken in a number of ways but there is broad consensus in people I've talked to that it is especially broken with regards to public records and science research. In the best of all possible worlds Aaron would have been acquitted with a landmark decision that said "this use of copyright in rent seeking behavior on documents…

Devil's advocate here. If Carmen actually agreed that Aaron's actions were not a crime, but wanted most of all to set a precedent, could that not explain her actions without malice? Maybe she was ideologically on Aaron's side, but recognized that a weak or cancelled prosecution would not yield a useful precedent. If she demonstrated a strong case and lost, it would send a message that Americans don't agree with strict enforcement of copyright in that way.

Of course this would be little solace to Aaron, as he probably would not be made aware until afterward, if ever.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#66

Post by w1ntermute »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #58
jordanb wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ending her career would set a very clear precedent that other prosecutors would have no difficulty understanding. N'est pas?

Sure, but I don't know if it would move the copyright reform question along. Copyright is very broken in a number of ways but there is broad consensus in people I've talked to that it is especially broken with regards to public records and science research. In the best of all possible worlds Aaron would have been acquitted with a landmark decision that said "this use of copyright in rent seeking behavior on documents…

All the good she's done doesn't matter, because when you're a prosecutor, all it takes is one mistake and you've could have blood on your hands. Firing her would send a message to other prosecutors that mistakes will not be tolerated.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#67

Post by arihant »

lmkg wrote: post #26

While Cameron Ortiz' actions towards Aaron Swartz were unjust, I think that she is receiving an unduly large share of the ire, and as a result, several other agents and factors in this scenario are receiving an unduly small share. While I don't particularly want to defend her, I believe that a) justice is never served well by a lynch mob b) other actors are more deserving of blame , and by focusing on Ortiz we give t…

Sure, but a DA should understand the law both in word and spirit. The job of the government ultimately is to protect citizens, not prosecute them for benefit.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#68

Post by jzwinck »

jivatmanx wrote: post #18
danso wrote: post #10

Some more context about the prosecutor: She was named "Bostonian of the Year" for her successful cases against mob bosses and drug companies: http://www.mainjustice.com/2012/01/03/massachusetts-u-s-atto... Out of the 94 U.S. DA offices, her office alone collected ~67% of the total criminal and civil fines in 2012, mostly owing to the successful prosecution of drug companies. Her success led to speculation that she wo…

It's clear that the severity of the charges were because the action was a political statement. That is why she wanted to "send a message" Had the same action been done by a non-political individual who simply did he "because he could" there would have been a quiet, minor settlement.

Does that make it better, or worse?

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#69

Post by OldSchool »

jlgreco wrote: post #62
harshreality wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if you're in a grey area? You spend hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars defending yourself, and you might be found innocent of the more serious charges, but there's a good chance you'll be convicted on one or two minor charges. You're still out the money you payed to your lawyers, and the prosecutor gets to say, "We didn't get the outcome we wanted, but the evildoer was still held to account for…

Yeah, the reality for the accused is that the system is rather black and white. Either you are not on their radar... or you are fucked. How fucked you are is really the only gradient here.

I actually agree with both of you. The system is so subjective that if you are rightly or wrongly ensnared by it, you always lose at a minimum, money. Civil cases are even more likely to occur because effectively anyone from an employee to a patent troll can play "prosecutor" and again the question is only how much it'll ultimately cost.
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