Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office • Hacker News Board

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#141

Post by jeswin » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 5:17 AM UTC

jordanb wrote: post #40

danso wrote: post #10

Some more context about the prosecutor: She was named "Bostonian of the Year" for her successful cases against mob bosses and drug companies: http://www.mainjustice.com/2012/01/03/massachusetts-u-s-atto... Out of the 94 U.S. DA offices, her office alone collected ~67% of the total criminal and civil fines in 2012, mostly owing to the successful prosecution of drug companies. Her success led to speculation that she wo…

Honestly I don't care if she spends her nights and weekends caring for orphans and war widows. She's a politician who treated Aaron Swartz as a pawn in the political game she is playing. No doubt she intended for her campaign for governor to describe her as a "staunch defender of intellectual property rights" who, as prosecutor, put a "dangerous hacker behind bars" for "breaking into MIT and stealing millions of doll…

She can probably kiss her governor ambitions goodbye now. The internet will destroy her campaign even before it begins.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#142

Post by monochromatic » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 5:20 AM UTC

genwin wrote: post #100

monochromatic wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

treated Aaron Swartz as a pawn in the political game she is playing Well, maybe. It's also entirely possible that she was just doing her job, and didn't totally understand the technical aspects of what Swartz was accused of doing.

Whether or not she totally understood the situation, she's just as liable. Either way, she'd be doing a horrible thing. You don't wield such power so haphazardly or harshly and still be a good person.

I agree that she's just as responsible, but I'm not ready to assume malice yet.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#143

Post by temphn » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 5:23 AM UTC

grogenaut wrote: post #139

rdtsc wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually if they drained his accounts and froze his assets and promised to shove in him a prison with hardened criminals for up to 50 years, where he could face assaults, rape and abuse (more so probably than the average hardened street criminal) killing himself didn't seem like such an irrational choice.

The point remains that the prosecutor did not kill him. He killed himself. Just trying to bring down the hyperbole on this thread... Speaking of which: In reality he would have gone to a while collar prison and would have gotten the counseling he obviously needed. (edit spelling)

This is apologism for untrammeled abuse of power. He was being threatened with 35 years in federal prison for downloading some PDFs! He would have been 61 when he got out. They would have taken away 40-50% of his life.

Sometimes it is better to live free or die. The people who need "counseling" are Ortiz, Heymann, and the inhumane who'd defend or excuse this travesty. Just following orders, blind legalism.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#144

Post by ealloc » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 5:35 AM UTC

pliu wrote: post #31

Quinn Norton: "It wasn't Carmen Ortiz that hounded Aaron to death, it was Steve Heymann. And the system that helped him do it: that was all of us." https://twitter.com/quinnnorton/status/290204205124304896 And Tim Carmody: "FWIW, Carmen Ortiz just runs the US Attorney's office in MA. Stephen Heymann is the Assistant US Attorney going hard after Aaron Swartz." https://twitter.com/tcarmody/status/290192055488094209

The equivalent petition for Steve Heymann: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/fire-assistant-us-...

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#145

Post by res0nat0r » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 5:39 AM UTC

I see the Internet lynch mob in full effect today with this. I would love to know the percentage of people signing this who only have read a couple HN articles for the first time today about this person and have no more than a passing knowledge of Ortizs' career than a Wikipedia summary.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#146

Post by Kylekramer » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 5:42 AM UTC

temphn wrote: post #143

grogenaut wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point remains that the prosecutor did not kill him. He killed himself. Just trying to bring down the hyperbole on this thread... Speaking of which: In reality he would have gone to a while collar prison and would have gotten the counseling he obviously needed. (edit spelling)

This is apologism for untrammeled abuse of power. He was being threatened with 35 years in federal prison for downloading some PDFs! He would have been 61 when he got out. They would have taken away 40-50% of his life. Sometimes it is better to live free or die. The people who need "counseling" are Ortiz, Heymann, and the inhumane who'd defend or excuse this travesty. Just following orders, blind legalism.

And the hyperbole is back. He hadn't been convicted and would never have served anything close to 35 years even if he was.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#147

Post by shiven » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 5:47 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #132

rosser wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't make a difference. If engineers started getting sacked for breaking the build, you can be damned sure people would get very scrupulous about only committing working code, whether they're fresh out of school or greybeards. No, it's not a perfect analogy, but I don't think it needs to be.

If you did it every time, sure. That's called changing the system. Sacking one engineer for breaking one build and then going back to encouraging all the other engineers for making as many commits as possible, and giving raises and promotions to engineers who make the most commits, while sweeping all the other broken builds under the rug, would just be scapegoating. Just like this is, actually.

Just like this is, actually.

No, so not like this, actually.

How many software engineers or their professional peers have been nudged, pushed or shoved into committing suicide because of a broken build? No, really?

When a person in position of authority is maliciously responsible for driving people to the brink of suicide and then some, they need to be held to a higher standard because of the very position they hold.

This episode is not an excuse for a witch-hunt of those in power, but the people who precipitated this episode need to be excised from their position precisely because of the irresponsible witch-hunt they carried out.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#148

Post by Turing_Machine » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 5:49 AM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #133

Turing_Machine wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people are expected to pay when they make mistakes. Period.

Better than just paying for mistakes is learning to prevent them the next time. If every major mistake anyone made was accompanied by an impartial failure analysis instead of finger pointing and scapegoating, society would advance much more quickly.

Maybe you should suggest that to the prosecutor.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#149

Post by philwelch » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 5:50 AM UTC

shiven wrote: post #147

philwelch wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you did it every time, sure. That's called changing the system. Sacking one engineer for breaking one build and then going back to encouraging all the other engineers for making as many commits as possible, and giving raises and promotions to engineers who make the most commits, while sweeping all the other broken builds under the rug, would just be scapegoating. Just like this is, actually.

Just like this is, actually. No, so not like this, actually. How many software engineers or their professional peers have been nudged, pushed or shoved into committing suicide because of a broken build? No, really? When a person in position of authority is maliciously responsible for driving people to the brink of suicide and then some, they need to be held to a higher standard because of the very position they hold.…

> How many software engineers or their professional peers have been nudged, pushed or shoved into committing suicide because of a broken build?

It wasn't my shitty analogy to begin with. You're missing the point: getting one prosecutor fired won't change anything, because everyone above and below that prosecutor will continue operating the exact same way.

Re: Petition the Whitehouse to remove Carmen Ortiz from office

#150

Post by rdl » Sun, Jan 13, 2013, 6:11 AM UTC

jzwinck wrote: post #65

ChuckMcM wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I don't know if it would move the copyright reform question along. Copyright is very broken in a number of ways but there is broad consensus in people I've talked to that it is especially broken with regards to public records and science research. In the best of all possible worlds Aaron would have been acquitted with a landmark decision that said "this use of copyright in rent seeking behavior on documents…

Devil's advocate here. If Carmen actually agreed that Aaron's actions were not a crime, but wanted most of all to set a precedent, could that not explain her actions without malice? Maybe she was ideologically on Aaron's side, but recognized that a weak or cancelled prosecution would not yield a useful precedent. If she demonstrated a strong case and lost, it would send a message that Americans don't agree with stric…

That falls to Occam's Razor. Prosecution is the way to conviction, so just publicly choosing not to prosecute would be a strong message.=, ad much lower cost.

Also, federal cases usually get settled in pleas, so there's less actual precedent. Going all the way to court would have been painful for him AND would have increased the odds of conviction.