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Aaron Swartz commits suicide

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Re: Aaron Swartz commits suicide

#281

Post by Tichy »

alan_cx wrote: post #245
rohamg wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is right. I'm shocked at the "suicide apologists" in this thread.

I'm shocked at "life bullies". Which lets face it is a Christian rule, and not applicable to all people. I would like to die right now. I'm just too cowardly. There is no simple switch to do it quickly and painlessly. No way to stop others being upset. No way to stop others discovering something that may scar them. I do not wish to mess up others. Why? I simply do not belong. I don't understand the human race at all,…

On the interntet nobody knows you are a human. No need to die for that. Also, there is a huge variety of human communities. Perhaps check Jared Diamond, I think his latest book describes tribes in New Guinea.

Re: Aaron Swartz commits suicide

#282

Post by SEMW »

jacques_chester wrote: post #217
jacquesm wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took these to be part of the DOJ: "The criminal investigation and today’s indictment of Mr. Swartz has been directed by the United States Attorney’s Office. It was the government’s decision whether to prosecute, not JSTOR’s. As noted previously, our interest was in securing the content. Once this was achieved, we had no interest in this becoming an ongoing legal matter." So it's not as if anybody outside the govern…

Prosecutors can usually act on their own initiative. It's because of the historical legal concept that an offence against a person is really an offence against the Crown. So the Crown takes a legal monopoly on force and logically, this means that the Crown gets to decide what to pursue. The USA inherited this concept from England. What I was trying to say above is that a prosecutor's goal is to prosecute as many case…

> What I was trying to say above is that a prosecutor's goal is to prosecute as many cases as fully as possible. They do not consider whether it is meritorious to pursue a case according to some outside moral standard, that's not their job.

I have no idea what the situation is in the US. But here in England that's just not true.

The CPS (Crown Prosecution Service)'s job is not to bring all the prosecutions that it believes it can win. It's to bring all prosecutions that it believes it can win that it's in the public interest to be brought. (http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/code_for_crown_prosecutor...)

The result is that CPS discretion is an important part of the system. And has the side-effect that the legislature has less incentive to narrow the scope of offences, since they believe (rightly or wrongly) they can rely on the CPS to not bring prosecutions where it wouldn't make sense to do so.

(Hence e.g. there's little pressure to amend the Sexual Offences Act with US-style 'romeo and juliet' laws to protect teenage couples who are technically both sexually assaulting each other, since the CPS guidelines (http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/...) in practice have the same effect).

Whether this system is better or worse than one where the prosecutor doesn't use discretion, but offences are defined more strictly, is an interesting discussion.

Re: Aaron Swartz commits suicide

#283

Post by neilk »

vor_ wrote: post #214
jacquesm wrote: post #159

Man this so sucks. If you hit someone with enough felony counts sooner or later something can snap. This in response to those that claim the DOJ didn't have anything to do with Aaron killing himself. For some people the mere fact of being suspected of a crime they didn't commit is enough to push them over the edge. When you're placed in a holding cell the police will remove your laces from your boots so you don't han…

You're essentially arguing that the ends justify the means.

It's called activism. Sometimes bad laws must be resisted, by breaking them deliberately.

The best among us do it in public, under their own names, daring the state to make good on their threats.

The law is not a unitary piece. Were Aaron's case to proceed to its natural conclusion, the courts might have found that higher principles override the civil agreements that he was charged with breaking.

And even when the courts are of no avail - when the basic procedures and principles of the state are corrupt - then it is up to activists to fight that corruption, and one way is through the theatre of breaking the law in public.

Re: Aaron Swartz commits suicide

#284

Post by corporalagumbo »

jacques_chester wrote: post #264
corporalagumbo wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I fail to see the relevance. The real issue here I would say is that you seem to have worked yourself up into a bit of a soul-saving frenzy, but your efforts are misplaced and frankly not appreciated. You seem not to realise that Hackernews is by and large a community of smart, stable, motivated and successful people, rather than a casualty ward for self-imploding depressives. I wou…

> The real issue here I would say is that you seem to have worked yourself up into a bit of a soul-saving frenzy, It's graceless of me. Oh noes, I might seem like a wanker who wants to help people. > but your efforts are misplaced and frankly not appreciated. By you. > I would suggest you shift your efforts to a forum where people are actually starkly discussing hopelessness and self-destruction, rather than just bri…

You seem pretty upset. I think you should try and relax. Take a break from the computer. Go get some fresh air. I'm sorry if I pushed your buttons but I do think you are over-reacting. Nobody on Hackernews is going to hurt themselves any time soon, okay?

Re: Aaron Swartz commits suicide

#285

Post by philwelch »

jfoster wrote: post #271
philwelch wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. While I'll agree it was overzealous to make a federal case out of this, you can't blame federal prosecutors for doing their fucking jobs just because someone kills themselves. Many people have survived federal prosecution without dying or killing themselves. I'm shocked and horrified by this news too. It's awful that Aaron died. But it's foolish to blame anybody but him for h…

Prosecutors could focus on trying to imprison some real criminals rather than bullying someone who is making positive contributions to society for doing something relatively harmless.

It's an essential part of the rule of law that prosecutors prosecute the law as it is, not as they, or we, wish it should be. They aren't the ones to blame for this. To whatever extent they are, we all are.

Re: Aaron Swartz commits suicide

#286

Post by barrkel »

jacques_chester wrote: post #217
jacquesm wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took these to be part of the DOJ: "The criminal investigation and today’s indictment of Mr. Swartz has been directed by the United States Attorney’s Office. It was the government’s decision whether to prosecute, not JSTOR’s. As noted previously, our interest was in securing the content. Once this was achieved, we had no interest in this becoming an ongoing legal matter." So it's not as if anybody outside the govern…

Prosecutors can usually act on their own initiative. It's because of the historical legal concept that an offence against a person is really an offence against the Crown. So the Crown takes a legal monopoly on force and logically, this means that the Crown gets to decide what to pursue. The USA inherited this concept from England. What I was trying to say above is that a prosecutor's goal is to prosecute as many case…

In the actual UK, the "public interest" is the decider of whether the state prosecutes when it has enough evidence. The way you phrase it, you make it sound like the only criterion is likelyhood of conviction (i.e. strength of evidence).

Re: Aaron Swartz commits suicide

#287

Post by rmc »

wheels wrote: post #240
jacquesm wrote: post #159

Man this so sucks. If you hit someone with enough felony counts sooner or later something can snap. This in response to those that claim the DOJ didn't have anything to do with Aaron killing himself. For some people the mere fact of being suspected of a crime they didn't commit is enough to push them over the edge. When you're placed in a holding cell the police will remove your laces from your boots so you don't han…

It really rubs me the wrong way when something like this happens and folks jump to conclusions as you have here. You didn't know this person. For all we know he could have not given two shits about the whole legal process and this is linked to family or relationship problems or long term general depression.

Here here. Charities that work with people struggling with suicide and mental health problems consistently ask the media to not attribute a suicide to one particular cause.

Often things are more complicated than that.

Re: Aaron Swartz commits suicide

#288

Post by jwdunne »

vor_ wrote: post #216
option_greek wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no need to speculate. The DOJ bought by corporate interests is directly responsible for his suicide. They are more worried about protecting corporate interests than worrying about the spirit of law.

Don't be ridiculous. Nobody is directly responsible for Swartz's suicide but Swartz. That's what suicide is.

Actually, I think it's reasonable to say that if someone is so depressed, their responsible diminishes as the pain deepens. It's a terrible thing and if he was unwell he can't really be classed as responsible surely?

There have been a few people in my life who have committed suicide. Knowing what they went through, feeling it a lot myself, it often feels like the only way out, the only way it will bring an end to your pain. It's not true but it feels totally like that, like you have absolutely no option.

Re: Aaron Swartz commits suicide

#289

Post by nazgulnarsil »

philwelch wrote: post #111
monsterix wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we not know who exactly (their faces/names etc.) were the people working in the "US Attorney Office" bent to indict him? It's easy for people to term it was not JSTOR, it was the Attorney Office but ultimately these things happen only because people forget how to treat other people properly.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. While I'll agree it was overzealous to make a federal case out of this, you can't blame federal prosecutors for doing their fucking jobs just because someone kills themselves. Many people have survived federal prosecution without dying or killing themselves. I'm shocked and horrified by this news too. It's awful that Aaron died. But it's foolish to blame anybody but him for h…

The average sentence for criminals convicted of rape in the United States is 117 months. The average time served is 65 months.

Re: Aaron Swartz commits suicide

#290

Post by pretoriusB »

pfortuny wrote: post #279
pretoriusB wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no illusion that therapy is magically going to stop all suicides. I think the very existence of "professional therapy" is a factor in FAVOR of depression and suicide. It means that as a society we have compartmentalised social life, so that the help one previously expected from his family/friends (and ultimately: from the way he can structure his life) is now to be had from paid professionals (or tacky volun…

Oh, no you do not understand at all. Depression cannot be dealt with just with an 'ordinary and structured life': it is an illness. It has existed always. The fact that there are specialists means that today, we have accepted is as what it its: a disease whose symptoms, professionals can, at least, try to decrease or even eliminate. Do not mistake 'tiredness', 'a season of bad temper', 'the normal stress during a cri…

>Oh, no you do not understand at all. Depression cannot be dealt with just with an 'ordinary and structured life': it is an illness. It has existed always.

While there are cases of physiological depression (an actual illness) in the staggering majority of cases it's not an illness but an easy cop-out to deny any major wrong with societal structure and the modern way of life.

"The fact that there are specialists" just means that the medical industry has found another profitable malaise to exploit -- similar to all those BS ADD prescriptions.

Ironically, Aaron Swartz conveyed this quite well in one of his posts "fix the factory, not the workers":

"And when the system isn’t working, it doesn’t make sense to just yell at the people in it — any more than you’d try to fix a machine by yelling at the gears. True, sometimes you have the wrong gears and need to replace them, but more often you’re just using them in the wrong way. When there’s a problem, you shouldn’t get angry with the gears — you should fix the machine."

http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/nummi

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