Never Lie About Who You Really Are • Hacker News Board

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#111

Post by jpxxx » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 3:44 PM UTC

gizzlon wrote: post #104

jpxxx wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that pressure come at the business end of a bat? Have you ever known someone had their face smashed in for calling someone a homo or for disliking billboards? The drive to not be literally exterminated is a powerful one, so you can be damn sure that pressure for tolerance will continue to be applied now that its "officially" acceptable to apply such pressure.

Does that pressure come at the business end of a bat? Not what the OP or the GP are talking about. It might be a valid discussion, but it's not this discussion.

After a careful re-read, you're right. Yielding!

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#112

Post by pyre » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 3:46 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #87

gadders wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a fabulous middle-class friend once who would refer to his Mum's boyfriend as "My mother's lover". Let's bring "lover" back. Failing that "Other Half" or "Baby Mums".

I always thought "lover" meant the person one was having an affair with.

I've always thought that lover implied sex ('lover' describing that they 'make love'), which is not a given in all relationships.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#113

Post by rmc » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 3:47 PM UTC

noja wrote: post #2

Isn't the idea of "coming out" a bit old fashioned now? (Straight people don't "come out")

Isn't the idea of "coming out" a bit old fashioned now?

What do you mean? People still have to come out...

(Straight people don't "come out")

Depends. Some straight trans people have to come out as trans.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#114

Post by rmc » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 3:48 PM UTC

king_jester wrote: post #89

mhurron wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (Straight people don't "come out") Well yes they do, it's just that they can do it by bringing home the boyfriend/girlfriend to meet the parents or whatever you want to consider normal first steps in expressing your sexuality. In a large part of the world though, probably most of the world where you can, if you are gay you basically have to explicit come out to your closest friends and relatives to get over whateve…

> Well yes they do, it's just that they can do it by bringing home the boyfriend/girlfriend to meet the parents or whatever you want to consider normal first steps in expressing your sexuality. No, this isn't coming out. In most places, people are seen as a default of straight. Coming refers to revealing to people you are not straight, so straight people by definition cannot come out.

In most places, people are seen as a default of straight.

Yes and that's wrong.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#115

Post by jpxxx » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 3:51 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #107

jpxxx wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your sexuality doesn't come in air-quotes, and you're teetering dangerously close to the word "choice" in a topic where no such thing exists. Your sexuality informs and alters 100% of your life.

Your sexuality informs and alters 100% of your life. No it doesn't. And choice exists in almost everything.

Hrm, let's perform an in situ experiment! Right now, get on the horn with the people in your world and announce that you're actually gay/straight, whichever is different than currently. Then live accordingly for a few years so we can see what changes!

The stakes: one upvote.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#116

Post by scarmig » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 3:52 PM UTC

noja wrote: post #7

lmm wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still not statistically normal, and it's still not immediately obvious. So there's always going to be a point where you tell people, and there's always the possibility of an off reaction, like when you mention that you have an unusual hobby. Add to that the fact that there's still a lot of judgement, and for some people it's easier to handle in a single conversation with everyone, and I think the coming out will…

Why does it matter if it's statistically normal, or obvious? Why is there a point when you have to tell people? It seems counter to the equal rights argument.

A good friend of mine, living in SF, recently came out to his parents who live in suburban Colorado.

His mom asked him the typical questions--"Are you sure? Have you tried dating girls? Are you sure you just haven't met the right one?" while his dad set quietly at the table.

Then all of his sudden his dad broke into a yelling rage, in the middle of a packed brunch place, accused his son of being scrawny because of AIDS, and stormed out of the place.

You really need to stop a second and try to see things from different perspectives.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#117

Post by gizzlon » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 3:54 PM UTC

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but is he telling us that we should try to be offended?

I'm referring to the second to last paragraph: You can't know if your values are being violated if you're ambiguous about what they are. Second, learn to develop a sixth sense for when your line is being crossed. It may be a gut feeling. A nervous laugh. A habit of rationalizing.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it because some people (especially in the media) seems to set out to be offended, and they're really annoying.

Of course there are many valid reasons to be offended and we (as individuals and societies) should treat everyone with respect and try to offend no-one. But it is possible to be too easily offended, and I'm afraid one might end up in that category by following his advice.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#118

Post by jiggy2011 » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 3:54 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #112

jiggy2011 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought "lover" meant the person one was having an affair with.

I've always thought that lover implied sex ('lover' describing that they 'make love'), which is not a given in all relationships.

It would probably be unusual (and super depressing) to have a sexless affair. I have also heard the term used in place of "fuck buddy" though.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#119

Post by mhurron » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 3:57 PM UTC

king_jester wrote: post #88

jpxxx wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is true, so think about it until you get it.

Except it's totally not, being straight in most places in the world is the default and everyone is seen through a lens of being straight. Coming out refers to revealing to people that you are not straight.

It may be the expectation but the reality is that it may not be true. Until you take an action to express your sexuality, everyone is just expecting you to be like them. Bringing home the boyfriend/girlfriend is implicitly declaring your heterosexuality, telling your family you are gay is explicitly declaring you are gay. You could also implicitly declare it by bringing home a same-sex partner. Coming out is simply expressing your sexuality.

Re: Never Lie About Who You Really Are

#120

Post by typicalrunt » Wed, Jan 09, 2013, 3:58 PM UTC

People have the misconception that a gay person comes out once. It's not true. If you're gay and you're authentic, you're coming out constantly. You're on a business trip, for example. A cab driver asks if you have kids, and you say that you do. Then he asks about your wife. Even though you may be exhausted, you find yourself summoning the energy to have a transformative conversation with a total stranger on whom you are depending to get to the airport and whose reaction you have no way of predicting.

The author's own situation is clouding his judgement. It is entirely easy to predict that asking if you have kids is going to lead to asking about a wife. This is the way family life has gone on for centuries. It's only recently (in generational terms) that gay couples could adopt children or even be openly gay and married... yet the author thinks that there's no way to predict how someone is going to steer a conversation. I wouldn't take offense if someone steered a conversation in the wrong way because it's more about their reaction to the surprise news ("oh, i have a husband not a wife") than to how the conversation found itself. Maybe I perhaps steered the conversation the wrong way instead of the cab driver.

As an aside: I had to rewrite this many times because I didn't want to come off as being homophobic, discriminatory, or what have you. I really don't like walking on egg shells, but some topics really cause other people to pounce.