Live data from Hacker News

Ford Releases An SDK For Their Cars

bits.blogs.nytimes.com

61–70 of 73 posts

Re: Ford Releases An SDK For Their Cars

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, they are legally obligated to share their modifications with their customers. No arguments here. Nope, if you distribute something with GPL code, you must make the source available to anyone that requests it. Not only to your customers. And you can't put any kind of filter on reasons for the request. One can only charge a "reasonable" amount for the work of making it available (CD, hosting, etc). The only corn…

> if you distribute something with GPL code, you must make the source available to anyone that requests it. Not only to your customers. And you can't put any kind of filter on reasons for the request. That's patently false for both the GPLv2 and GPLv3. For v2, see section 3. Only one of the three compliance options requires universal fulfillment of requests for source. GPLv3 has no similar requirement. The closest an…

GPLv2 makes no such distinction or limitation in section 3.

I states that distribution of binaries must include either: a) Complete corresponding machine-readable source code; or b) Written offer to give any third party a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code;

Item c) applies only to non-commercial cases, which is not the case here.

So if they are not doing a), they need to do b). And written does not imply regular mail (which you mentioned in your other reply), it can be anything on their web page or an e-mail.

If every distributed copy includes full source, then that's covered. Otherwise any request must be fulfilled, as there should be a written notice offering it somewhere. There is no limitation to who can request it.

GPLv3 on the other hand is more "legalese" and harder to read. Section 6 mentions possession of object code only for item b), which is the case for "written notice". So it will only apply if there is such written notice upon distribution.

Item c) is only for non-commercial cases. Items d) and e) require making source electronically available. Item a) says that if it is a physical product it needs to include full sources in some media.

If the distributor doesn't do d) or e), they need to do a) or b).

So, nowhere it is "patently false". Only if using GPLv3, and the binaries being provided along with a physical product, then there is no obligation to provide the code to any request.

The "corner case" I mentioned in my comment is related to item a). The limitation on item b) is actually something I had never noticed before.

But I have no idea which license version Tesla uses, so I don't know if this applies.

PS: Just to clarify one thing: trying to download a file from a URL or via P2P also constitutes a request. It's just on another media.

Re: Ford Releases An SDK For Their Cars

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you guys get that info? As far as I know, it's always been that if you distribute something with GPL code, you must make the source available to anyone that requests it. Not only to your customers. One can change though, for the costs of making it available. The thing you mentioned is applied to licensing. A person is only under obligations by the license if he/she distributes anything that uses GPL code. I…

> if you distribute something with GPL code, you must make the source available to anyone that requests it That's only true if you're operating under section 3(b) of the GPLv2: explicitly offering source via mail order. If you offer GPLv2 source via mail order, you have to honor mail order requests from anyone. However, you aren't required to offer the source via mail order at all, as per section 3. In the GPLv3, the…

I don't think this is the right interpretation.

I've replied with my understanding of it in more details to your other comment at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5030865 (in case other people want to follow the conversation).

Re: Ford Releases An SDK For Their Cars

#63

Since we are on the topic: I wish Tesla would finally live up to their obligations and release the GPLed parts of their product (that includes, at a minimum, the Linux kernel with all modifications).

GPL compliance (sigh) and a new SDK for a vehicle aren't really the same topic. They just happen to have cars in common. If I left a comment about the camshaft on my Jeep, that wouldn't be on topic, even though it's about cars. That aside, what do you hope to gain from their GPL compliance? Pop open the GPL compliance kit from, say, a Netgear router and you get a kernel, a few drivers, and the toolchain used to build…

Allowing people to engage their curiosity is the #1 reason I release software under the GPL.

Re: Ford Releases An SDK For Their Cars

#64
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. I wonder if anyone has ever attempted to ban billboards under the guise of being worried about distracted driving.

This is actually already the case in a few European countries I am aware of. Not all streets, but next to the highways there can't be any visible billboards.

Like Germany. The one country where there is no general speed limit on highways.

Actually, everytime I visit countries with billboards on highway, it seems really bizarre and stupid to place ads next to highways.

Re: Ford Releases An SDK For Their Cars

#65
post #33
post #5

This sounded awesome right up to the point that they said that this was a hotly pursued space due to advertising potential to a captive audience. If I am in my own car and my music is interrupted with an ad every time I drive by a McDonalds - I would find that extremely annoying. On the other hand, if you could lease a car at a subsidized price in exchange for ads, that might be an attractive offer to some.

A chocolate company in Cleveland ran a promotion where the company would pay you $150 per month for three years if you bought a specially wrapped and painted Volkswagon Beetle with their colors and logos plastered on it. http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/08/would_yo...

Trivia fact: you can get a ticket in the UK for driving an obviously commercial vehicle through a Royal Park. A few years back my wife got a ticket in Holyrood Park in Edinburgh for driving along a road that cuts through the edge of the park in a car that had the logo of the company she worked for at the time.

Re: Ford Releases An SDK For Their Cars

#66
post #38

I was notified today that GM also came out with there API today. Seems a bit odd that they would both release the exact same feature on the same day. I wonder how similar their SDK's will be. http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/...

We just entered a GM Connected Car app in the ATT Hackathon in Las Vegas this past weekend. GM provides an Eclipse plugin that has the SDK and emulator. GM's API is Javascript-based and your app is HTML5/CSS and JS code.

Re: Ford Releases An SDK For Their Cars

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It ought to be flatly illegal to visually advertise through an in-car app. An ad is designed to engage attention; visually engaging a driver is the last thing we want on the road. It's beyond stupid. YOU ARE PASSING A GAS STATION. PLEASE STOP AND BUY IT. YOU ARE PASSING A SANDWICH SHOP. PLEASE SWERVE LEFT AND BUY SANDWICH. 5 POINTS IF YOU CHANGE TO THE FAR RIGHT LANE!

Hm. I wonder if anyone has ever attempted to ban billboards under the guise of being worried about distracted driving.

Ban, I don't know. I recall that Denver regulated billboards in the mid 1970s for just this reason--certain flashing signs had to be shut down.

Re: Ford Releases An SDK For Their Cars

#68
post #57

"Certain kinds of apps will be barred, like games, elaborate video and anything that would require extensive reading." .. "Ford also announced nine new apps that would be part of the Sync system, including The Wall Street Journal, USA Today..." Good that these don't require extensive reading

I would assume like NPR it would be for controlling audio streams of news?

Re: Ford Releases An SDK For Their Cars

#69

Nice, I like the forward thinking by ford on this. I only wish next they open up the engine controller, and let the real hackers in!

This doesn't seem like the sort of thing you'd want to expose to the general public. With computers, you are generally pretty safe from breaking anything permanently. Engines, on the other hand, are not only subject to a host of regulations but also very easy to destroy with a few errors. Serious hackers would of course be very interested, but allowing the general public to cause thousands of dollars in damage to the…

I don't like this reasoning. We already give people physical access to their cars' engines. They can do as much damage just as easily, but they don't because they'd rather have a functional car.

Open up access to the computer and it would be the same thing. Most people would leave it alone and those who didn't would know ahead of time what they're getting into.

Re: Ford Releases An SDK For Their Cars

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you distribute something with GPL code, you must make the source available to anyone that requests it. Not only to your customers. And you can't put any kind of filter on reasons for the request. That's patently false for both the GPLv2 and GPLv3. For v2, see section 3. Only one of the three compliance options requires universal fulfillment of requests for source. GPLv3 has no similar requirement. The closest an…

GPLv2 makes no such distinction or limitation in section 3. I states that distribution of binaries must include either: a) Complete corresponding machine-readable source code; or b) Written offer to give any third party a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code; Item c) applies only to non-commercial cases, which is not the case here. So if they are not doing a), they need to do b). And writte…

I apologize for my tone, and I think we're in agreement. "Patently false" is a bit extreme, but we seem to agree that it's possible to comply with the GPLv2 without being required to distribute source to anyone that asks. That's section 3(a): include source alongside the object code. If the Tesla cars come with a CD-ROM or a USB stick containing the source, then they're in compliance.

I mention mail order because, oddly, the GPLv2 actually requires that you provide source via postal mail to people if you're opting to comply under 3(b). That subsection states that in response to a written offer, you must provide source "on a medium customarily used for software interchange." That's interpreted by the FSF's GPL FAQ as "if any [third party] would rather get the source on physical media by mail, you are required to provide that" [0].

There's an additional entry in the FAQ [1] specifically covering the definition of third parties for GPLv2: "If you choose to provide source through a written offer, then anybody who requests the source from you is entitled to receive it."

So written-offer-for-source appears to be the exceptional case for GPLv2: you have to provide it on physical media, and to anyone that asks. But if you choose to distribute source alongside the binaries, per section 3(a), then you're free from that obligation.

Given that GPLv3's section 6(b) intentionally constrained this to only people who possess the object code, it feels like the universality of v2's section 3(b) is a bit of a fluke, and not representative of the goals of the GPL. Thus, in responding to your claim that "you must make the source available to anyone that requests it. Not only to your customers." I'd argue that the GPLv2 clearly and explicitly allows you to only make source available to your customers, if you comply with 3(a).

[0]: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq#DistributeWithSourceOnI... [1]: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq#WhatDoesWrittenOfferVal...

Post reply on HN