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The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

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Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#101

Post by Fluda3 »

tolmasky wrote: post #48
Fluda3 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find HN to be quite rich, in both content and discussions about said content. I don't post because I usually don't have anything significant to add to the conversation. I have to say though, your comment deeply disturbs me. Those weren't poisonous words. And I highly doubt that his comment, which seems quite informative, comes from his "dreams of a world made of slaves". I can tell you're American. Constantly when…

I assure you that your "burden" of having to "constantly" listen to Americans educate you about socialism is more than outweighed by people like you assuming we are all one homogeneous mass that behaves that way ("I can tell you're American" followed by a lecture about the "blow your mind" level of intolerance and hatred here, as if that is uniquely American) I wonder how you maintain the cognitive dissonance that so…

First, I didn't call it a burden so you can't exactly quote me as having said that. But it's cool, it is a pain in the ass so go for it.

Second, I don't think America is a "homogeneous mass that behaves that way" and neither did I say that. I said that this (getting to hear long-winded rants about political views, religion, social issues, etc.) occurs constantly when I'm in the US. You've confused my statement of anecdotal evidence as a statement of all encompassing truth. It isn't. I don't believe the majority of Americans are like this. I just think (note that word: think, not know, it's my opinion) you have a significant portion of people that are like this, are quite vocal about it, and aren't overly tolerant of differing opinions.

Third, I'm not confused and no simultaneously differing viewpoints are rolling around in my brain either. I didn't state my own opinions on the matter of Obama, capitalism, universal health care (bet you can guess where I stand on that one though), I merely stated MY experiences with the opinions of Americans I had ran into while traveling. Yes, you relected Obama. Cheers. 48.97% of people that voted didn't vote for Obama. Maybe the people I'm referring to are a subset of them, no?

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#102

Post by mathieuh »

ucee054 wrote: post #96
martinced wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because socialism or communism works so much better right? People are especially envious of the great freedom people in North Korea are enjoying? Same as Cuba? Venezuela? Argentina? (wanna change your currency to another one in Argentina to hedge yourself against a very strong inflation? you can't, because the socialist state won't let you do that) What's next after Karl Marx? That the homophobic racist murderer that…

You really can't tell the difference between socialism and communism? socialism = Norway, communism = North Korea So you think Norway and North Korea are identical? Or are you under the delusion that Norway is badly managed? Do you think people get dragged to the Gulag there? You better shut off the Fox News and go read a book.

Norway is not socialist and North Korea is not communist. Norway is social democratic and North Korea is juche.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#103

Post by tolmasky »

ucee054 wrote: post #98
tolmasky wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assure you that your "burden" of having to "constantly" listen to Americans educate you about socialism is more than outweighed by people like you assuming we are all one homogeneous mass that behaves that way ("I can tell you're American" followed by a lecture about the "blow your mind" level of intolerance and hatred here, as if that is uniquely American) I wonder how you maintain the cognitive dissonance that so…

Sorry no that's an obvious Americanism (American right-ism). Nobody else on the planet says SOCIALISM with the Bill O'Reilly sneer and think that's a debate-ender. Try to imagine a Chinese or a Frenchman saying that. Doesn't work. That's because in other countries "socialism" isn't a swear word.

I have visited plenty of other countries where people have expressed similar sentiments towards "socialism", Canada included. I'm not even sure why I'm bothering responding to this comment, it's so absurd and clearly blindingly biased. As if literally no one on earth other than Americans could dislike socialism that much.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#104

Post by anigbrowl »

jdale27 wrote: post #91
sliverstorm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will never be wealthy and I will still continue to vote for a fair tax system. A flat tax system. Because everyone should pay the same, regardless of status or income. Trouble with a flat tax system is the poor can't afford the tax rates the nation's current expenditure would require. It would work O.K. if the expenditure was much lower, but I see no way to get from here to there. Aside from that, I've come to beli…

I am not an economist, but it sounds like you're getting at something similar to the diminishing marginal utility of money. I can't find a good source online that explains this, but the basic idea is that the more money someone has, the less each additional increment is actually worth. For example, a $10,000 raise is a lot more useful to a person that makes $50,000 a year than to one who makes $500,000 a year. There…

That's correct. Alfred Marshall's theories of utility are the basis of modern economic analysis. Todd Buchholz' New Ideas from Dead Economists has a great introduction to these ideas while being more accessible than the typical econ textbook.

http://www.amazon.com/New-Ideas-Dead-Economists-Introduction...

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#105

Post by lostlogin »

scarmig wrote: post #84
maratd wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US has no shortage of zombies who don't think on their won. A human being is at the most juvenile when he encounters a view contrary to his own and ascribes it to stupidity. If only everyone was as enlightened, as educated, as brilliant as he ... then everyone would understand. No. Grow up. I will never be wealthy and I will still continue to vote for a fair tax system. A flat tax system. Because everyone should pa…

A flat tax? That's a bit too socialist for my tastes... should a man making $100k per year really be forced to pay twice as much as a man making $50k per year, just for being more productive? Wouldn't a head tax be better, since everyone would then pay equally? Plus you would not have the disincentive effect on marginal labor of your "make twice as much, pay twice as much" scheme. Also, why should I be forced to pay…

What if your paying the way for the other guy, who is 20 years your junior, allows him to better pay your medical bills when you get sick at age 70, and have no money to pay yourself (through no fault of your own you have lost a lot when X disaster occurred)? The swings and roundabout of the system aren't ever simple. Likewise, what about the 5 year old who needs state help, has contributed nothing, has had no chance to and has done nothing wrong. Who should pay if the parents don't?

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#106

Post by yk »

anigbrowl wrote: post #95
yk wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the buildings get paid? Marx did work under the assumption of the "Labor theory of value" [1], which states that only labor adds value to raw products, and that only humans are paid. So the price of a consumer product may be broken down into labor costs, raw material, R&D, long term investments etc. But each of the non labor points can be broken up further and in the end you end with only labor. 19th century econo…

No, the person who invested in the building and bought the machinery and raw material gets reimbursed and paid the opportunity cost of their investment, aka normal profits (as opposed to economic profits). I think the labor theory of value is one of Marx's main errors; it sort of works for agriculture because food does actually grow out of the ground, land was owned without being built, and in the 19th century the va…

I sort of agree, that the labor theory of value is one of the main problems of Marx's analysis. Sort of, because I think the premise that only people accept money and you always end up with profits or wages is essentially tautological. However, it is not a very useful way to think about (modern) markets, since one is too busy to trace back flows of money to actually understand their behavior.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#107

Post by lostlogin »

mathieuh wrote: post #102
ucee054 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really can't tell the difference between socialism and communism? socialism = Norway, communism = North Korea So you think Norway and North Korea are identical? Or are you under the delusion that Norway is badly managed? Do you think people get dragged to the Gulag there? You better shut off the Fox News and go read a book.

Norway is not socialist and North Korea is not communist. Norway is social democratic and North Korea is juche.

So much so. The Cuba = communist is somewhat off too. About as off as calling USA a democracy. Anyone can be elected to president. Right?

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#108

Post by tolmasky »

Fluda3 wrote: post #101
tolmasky wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assure you that your "burden" of having to "constantly" listen to Americans educate you about socialism is more than outweighed by people like you assuming we are all one homogeneous mass that behaves that way ("I can tell you're American" followed by a lecture about the "blow your mind" level of intolerance and hatred here, as if that is uniquely American) I wonder how you maintain the cognitive dissonance that so…

First, I didn't call it a burden so you can't exactly quote me as having said that. But it's cool, it is a pain in the ass so go for it. Second, I don't think America is a "homogeneous mass that behaves that way" and neither did I say that. I said that this (getting to hear long-winded rants about political views, religion, social issues, etc.) occurs constantly when I'm in the US. You've confused my statement of ane…

My point is that I highly doubt you've met that many Americans, not enough to state an opinion on a "significant portion of Americans" at least -- hence my statement about judging us as a homogenous mass. Perhaps I should have been clearer: I suspect you are over-extrapolating. I also believe there are plenty of people from other countries with similar (and equally vocal) beliefs as well.

I visit Canada frequently, Nova Scotia to be exact, and in my time there I have run across some interesting viewpoints, but I would not pretend to have a firm grasp of any significant portion of Canadians. I understand it is one fairly isolated region, it is small, and I don't have full context.

Now, to give you some perspective, there are 310 MILLION Americans, which is 10 times more than Canada. I think people often don't realize this. There are as many people in California alone as all of Canada (more actually). Within the span of 9 hours we could drive and visit cities within California with such different ideologies you'd not understand how they can all operate together.

So excuse me for being highly suspicious of any person claiming they've met some Americans and thus reached some conclusion on how a significant portion of them think. Especially when normally something like this could just as easily be explained by confirmation bias and particularly vocal minorities.

I suppose my point is that I don't understand the need to bring "Americans" into this at all. You were having a discussion with one individual that you know little about, so what is the need to essentially say "I bet you are of nationality X for this negative reason". Outside of being a by the book presumptive and prejudicial position, it will also serve to alienate people that may otherwise agree with you.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#109

Post by lostlogin »

malandrew wrote: post #45
anigbrowl wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically workers create $240 of wealth every eight hour work day, but are only paid $200 a day. But workers don't create that much wealth in a day by themselves; they need plant and material to create the product or service that is sold. The buildings they work in, the machinery that they use, the raw material they consume, are equally important inputs to production and it is these which are supplied by the capitali…

Yes and no. Of the $40 the worker is shorted, a portion goes to the capitalist and a portion goes to the buildings they work in, the machinery they use and the raw material they consume. The benefits of those things accrue to the capitalist even though it was finance with the value created by the labor of the worker. Only the upfront costs to begin a business are attributable to the capitalist. All the growth of that…

I'm not sure that the $40, as a percentage of wage, would even cover my sick and annual leave, professional indemnity insurance, insurance against accidental injury, professional body costs, registration costs, mileage and expenses claims, clothing costs, immunizations, continuing professional development costs and the other things I guess I have missed. My employer is good.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#110

Post by lostlogin »

frogpelt wrote: post #23
tsotha wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of Marx's critiques of capitalism make some sense. The problem is nobody has come up with a better system for lifting people out of poverty.

There will always be impoverished people. Capitalism provides the best opportunity to choose not to be.

Is it possible to travel and believe this 100%? Capitalism might be the best option but I'm not that confident after seeing the so-called progress it has inflicted on a lot of places. I don't know what a better option is, but I the warts of capitalism sure are ugly.
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