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The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

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Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#61

Post by bhntr3 »

jeffdavis wrote: post #50

I would be interested to see more statistics and trends of people over time. Many of the statistics I see divide people into classes by income, but ignore the fact that the people within those classes change. For instance, let's say that people in the next generation decide to go to college for 10 more years, leaving at 32 rather than 22. Then, when they get out, they make 50% more income than the previous generation…

It's an interesting argument that I've heard many times in different ways. I'm inclined to think there's some truth to it.

But when you look at trends, income is stagnant, wages are stagnant AND measures of social mobility are low as well as studies that show a lack of evidence for second and third generation immigrants being significantly better off.

That plus the (admittedly anecdotal) evidence that single earner lower middle class families who own their homes and cars are much rarer seems to indicate that the shrinking middle class is a reality (measured mostly by some vague "quality of life" metric.)

So it's complicated. The most compelling argument I've heard is that necessities are getting more expensive relative to general inflation (gas, food, housing) On the other hand, what you get for your money is much more advanced now technologically. So it's not like we're strictly speaking worse off even if our relative purchasing power has decreased.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#62

Post by alexqgb »

scarmig wrote: post #35
alexqgb wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Braudel is a fantastic historian in his own right, but especially important in this context in that he started his career as an overt Marxist who wanted to contribute to Marx's theory by supplying the actual history on which it depended. That is to say, a history told not from the perspective of popes and princes, but one based on material data about the world's great systems; macro-economic factors like weather patt…

It warms my heart to no end that there's another Braudel fan here! =) I didn't intend to come off as wholly dismissive of Marx--it's very fair to say that he's one of the great thinkers of political economy and sociology. But relying on 19th century thinkers when they've been surpassed always strikes me as unfortunate.

It's a bit like studying the development of physics and stopping when you get to Newton.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#63

Post by tsotha »

cantankerous wrote: post #43
TruthElixirX wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less people are living in poverty now more than ever: http://www.worldvision.org/news/worldwide-fewer-people-live-... Its just that wealth is being more evenly distributed and the U.S. is feeling some of that pressure.

Evenly distributed across the world, you mean. The pressure discussed in this article and probably most of this thread doesn't have to do with that distribution, though. It has to do with the distribution in the US, which has most definitely skewed towards the top. Wealth might be on some trend to level out world-wide, but what's happening here right now and over the past few decades is not that global trend. It's an…

The trend in the US has nothing to do with capitalism per se. We added ten million Central and South American peasants to the bottom end of the job market over the last twenty years or so. I don't know why anyone would be surprised to see a bifurcation of income strata.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#64

Post by jeffdavis »

bhntr3 wrote: post #61
jeffdavis wrote: post #50

I would be interested to see more statistics and trends of people over time. Many of the statistics I see divide people into classes by income, but ignore the fact that the people within those classes change. For instance, let's say that people in the next generation decide to go to college for 10 more years, leaving at 32 rather than 22. Then, when they get out, they make 50% more income than the previous generation…

It's an interesting argument that I've heard many times in different ways. I'm inclined to think there's some truth to it. But when you look at trends, income is stagnant, wages are stagnant AND measures of social mobility are low as well as studies that show a lack of evidence for second and third generation immigrants being significantly better off. That plus the (admittedly anecdotal) evidence that single earner l…

"It's an interesting argument that I've heard many times in different ways."

I wasn't making an argument; merely asking for numbers and explaining why the existing numbers may be deceptive.

"a lack of evidence for second and third generation immigrants being significantly better off."

Do you have some numbers to back that up? I'd like to see them broken down by country of origin, if possible.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#65

Post by tsotha »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #6
CleanedStar wrote: post #3

When Karl Marx wrote Capital in 1867, he said capitalism would never be able to get rid of credit bubbles, financial crises, high unemployment etc. He said that over time the problems would get worse and worse with greater and greater financial crises. Here we are about a century and a half later and you just have to look at the housing bubble, the bank crisis, TARP and the government bailout, unemployment in the US…

Anyone who thinks that the recent financial crisis is due to a fundamental failing of the free market just has not been paying attention, or has an ideological ax to grind. The latest economic crises are mostly the result of bad government policies and excessive government debt.

It's actually a good example of the market working by correcting imbalances in the economy (agreed that the government is mostly responsible for those imbalances). You can either get the pain over with or stumble along zombie-style like the Japanese have been doing.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#66

Post by scarmig »

maratd wrote: post #60
rayiner wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, a reactionary living in 19th century might have said "because democracy works so much better right? People are so envious of the great freedom people in France are enjoying." With the memory of the French Revolution fresh in their mind, they probably would have been reasonable to say so.

Liberal western-style democracy with open markets has certainly seen its failures. And it has also seen its successes. Pray tell, what successes has communism and radical socialism achieved?

That's tricky, because it's not so much a question of successes relative to the past (which I assume you'd agree are many) but a question of successes relative to alternative worlds where a capitalist system had developed in those countries. And there's also a question of what counts as communism/radical socialism in your book--China, even now, has far more government involvement in the economy than many Western countries, and even more so under Deng. Does it count? What about Congress-style socialism in India?

That said, and emphasizing I have no love of the following countries and think some form of liberal democracy would have worked substantially better...

Cuba started from a fairly good baseline, so we shouldn't read too much into it, but it has superior healthcare and education to much of Latin America.

The Soviet Union had a couple decades of breakneck economic growth: many economists, perhaps even the majority, expected it to have outgrown the West by the 1980s. This should be discounted somewhat, though, this time because the UK and the USA also rapidly developed at various points in their history.

The USSR also excelled at generating a large class of engineers, scientists, and mathematicians, who contributed a large body of knowledge to the world. And it made some pretty good chess players, too, when it wasn't cheating like crazy.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#67

Post by pinaceae »

Related to this, Showtime is currently airing a rather brilliant set of documentaries narrated by Oliver Stone called the 'Untold History of the United States'.

It basically puts this article into broader context, from the entry to WW2 onward.

Would be interesting to know how much different the reception of those documentaries is for a US-educated citizen. They definitely fit to the overall history being taught over here in Europe, but might conflict heavily with the official narrative in the US.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#68

Post by maratd »

rdtsc wrote: post #52

> The expectation of rising real incomes was built into the American culture Ah that's the classic propaganda line: "I am not poor, I am just pre-wealthy." ...So I sure don't want to vote for anything that would jeopardize my wealthy position when I get there. The key in all of this is ability to manipulate the people into believing and voting in a particular way. US has no shortage of zombies who don't think on thei…

> US has no shortage of zombies who don't think on their won.

A human being is at the most juvenile when he encounters a view contrary to his own and ascribes it to stupidity.

If only everyone was as enlightened, as educated, as brilliant as he ... then everyone would understand.

No. Grow up.

I will never be wealthy and I will still continue to vote for a fair tax system. A flat tax system. Because everyone should pay the same, regardless of status or income.

I won't always be healthy and I will still continue to vote against a socialist healthcare system. Because everyone should pay for what they use, no more and no less. Not just with healthcare, but with everything.

You don't believe what I believe? That's fine. But how dare you ascribe my beliefs to ignorance? That in itself, is ignorance distilled. The refusal to even consider anything but your own stunted views.

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#69

Post by jeffdavis »

scarmig wrote: post #53
jeffdavis wrote: post #50

I would be interested to see more statistics and trends of people over time. Many of the statistics I see divide people into classes by income, but ignore the fact that the people within those classes change. For instance, let's say that people in the next generation decide to go to college for 10 more years, leaving at 32 rather than 22. Then, when they get out, they make 50% more income than the previous generation…

You see that same issue when people complain that X% of the population doesn't pay income taxes: it's true, as far as it goes, but it ignores that people nowadays have extended periods of studenthood, sabbaticals, and partial retirement (among other things). The daughter of two professors working on a PhD in mathematics is not of a lower class than a high school educated waitress, despite making a similar amount. I d…

Interesting, thank you (haven't read it yet, but the first page looks promising).

Re: The Crisis of the Middle Class and American Power

#70

Post by anigbrowl »

martinced wrote: post #26
CleanedStar wrote: post #3

When Karl Marx wrote Capital in 1867, he said capitalism would never be able to get rid of credit bubbles, financial crises, high unemployment etc. He said that over time the problems would get worse and worse with greater and greater financial crises. Here we are about a century and a half later and you just have to look at the housing bubble, the bank crisis, TARP and the government bailout, unemployment in the US…

Because socialism or communism works so much better right? People are especially envious of the great freedom people in North Korea are enjoying? Same as Cuba? Venezuela? Argentina? (wanna change your currency to another one in Argentina to hedge yourself against a very strong inflation? you can't, because the socialist state won't let you do that) What's next after Karl Marx? That the homophobic racist murderer that…

Reaching for extreme examples at the outset is a sign that something is amiss with your argument.Observing that capitalism might have structural flaws is not a call for the implementation of soviet-style communism, and your ideological tone is debasing the discussion. Please chill out, and show a little more respect to other participants.
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