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Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

asherwolf.com

151–160 of 160 posts

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> systematic oppression > Do the same to an unprivileged minority and it is potentially life threatening. There is no comparison. Racism must be systematic in order to be 'real' racism? Instances of racism must be comparable to one another in severity in order to be 'real' racism? These implications of severity and comparability are entirely your own invention. anewguy99 was not suggesting anything of the sort, you h…

See: Derailing. When instances of oppression occur, the most important thing to do is not point out the hypocrisies of the victim. It's not to whine about the oppression that YOU have to deal with yourself. It's not to compare your minor suffering to their systematic bullying. Everyone suffers, everyone has their own battles. Now is not the time to dredge it up as if it's more important, or just as important as what…

I'm seriously not trying to undermine you here, but there's a massive empathy failure across this entire thread and I think this needs to be pointed out.

What you mean when you say "racism" is not what the parent means. The dictionary definition[1] of racism is actually quite broad and basically says that you're both right - the word "racism" can be used to describe a systematic system of oppression of racial minorities, but it can also be used to describe any instance where race is used as a discriminating factor.

You're not going to persuade very many people by simply asserting that the word means what you think it means, when other reasonable people could disagree about that meaning. You'll end up in pointless semantic arguments, and if you're doing this on HN then you'll be arguing with people who can make some very nuanced arguments about semantics.

There is a whole discourse about race, privilege, oppression, gender and so on which has acquired its own vocabulary, often by applying very specific meanings to words which have historically broader meanings, and which places emphasis on systematic or aggregate effects of oppression/privilege. Communities which are not steeped in this tradition do not share these word usages or these emphases; the average HN user is going to see a reference to "...white dudes..." as "racist" because it's a phrase that invokes race and gender when these factors are otherwise irrelevant, and they're going to focus on the individual case rather than where this fits in the aggregate sum of all racism/sexism across humanity.

In other words, your average HNer is probably follows deontological ethics[2] and is likely to evaluate individual instances of behaviour according to general rules. If invoking race is bad, invoking race in relation to white people is therefore bad, and therefore the "white dudes" comment is bad. You can't easily argue (to a deontologist) that it's "not racism" because this means that sometimes the "rules" don't apply.

Now, I'm not saying who is right or wrong, only that it's something that reasonable people can disagree about. I doubt that there is a right or wrong. My belief is that it should not be impossible to agree on how to tackle discrimination, but in order to engage everyone in doing so we'll need to appeal to a range of different ethical viewpoints, and trying to argue that the other person's ethics are simply wrong is unlikely to be persuasive.

[1] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism?s=t [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deontological_ethics

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#152

> Inequality doesn’t just spring up without a context. There's the problem. People aren't equal, and they never will be. So yes, inequality is fundamental. The sooner you accept that, the better.

This is correct. Everyone is an individual and no two people are, strictly speaking, equal.

But that doesn't justify all instances of treating people differently. If I steal from you, you would expect me to receive the same punishment as if you had stolen from me. We are therefore "equal before the law".

In the case of the law, we ask our legal system to suspend judgment of certain inequalities and to focus only on the facts of the case. There's no reason why we should not do this in other matters - if we're judging someone on their merits as a software developer, we can legitimately consider their unequal experience, intelligence, skills and abilities, but we should not consider their age, gender or ethnicity.

Now, you might argue at this point that we wouldn't consider age/gender/ethnicity anyway, because these have no bearing on software development. And you would be mostly right to do so - these factors are genuinely unimportant. But most people are imperfect judges; they use heuristics and intuition in ways which can sometimes go awry. We might apply stereotypes, we might allow our judgment of other similar individuals we have met in the past to cloud our judgment of the person before us now, and so on.

When people talk about equality, they're really asking that we find an effective way to ensure that we're making our judgments using only the truly relevant criteria. Past experience suggests that this takes effort and requires some cultural reinforcement. It's emphatically not about denying that people are different, but about ensuring that only the most contextually important differences are considered.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#153

> Inequality doesn’t just spring up without a context. There's the problem. People aren't equal, and they never will be. So yes, inequality is fundamental. The sooner you accept that, the better.

This is correct. Everyone is an individual and no two people are, strictly speaking, equal. But that doesn't justify all instances of treating people differently. If I steal from you, you would expect me to receive the same punishment as if you had stolen from me. We are therefore "equal before the law". In the case of the law, we ask our legal system to suspend judgment of certain inequalities and to focus only on t…

I don't disagree with you. Actually, you're spot on.

The problem was the phrasing in the OP: "Inequality doesn’t just spring up without a context." That doesn't jive, because inequality doesn't need some "context." It's always there.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

anewguy99 did not say anything about "reverse racism". He was talking about racism.

"reverse racism" is what it is called when someone claims that someone is being "racist" against the privileged majority. It's nonsense. It doesn't make sense that there is systematic oppression against ... the cohort that is undeniably and unshakably in power. If you insult someone for being white, yes it might hurt their feelings. Do the same to an unprivileged minority and it is potentially life threatening. There…

Dehumanizing individuals by identifying them with some genetically defined class is always wrong, even if the individual is a member of a class that it is PC to hate on.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#155
post #17

If you are a man reading this, I invite you to: a. Resist the urge to pick apart the OP's life and criticize how/what she said. b. Honestly reflect, without shame or blame, about what you know of sexism. What do you understand of it? What do you understand it's roots are, and how it works? What do you think your responsibility is, as a man, and as a member of this community? I invite you to do this, because it's a ch…

Honestly, reading this the only thing I wish is to have been at 29c3 when whoever made the creeper card image did that so I could give them a piece of mind. I wonder if we couldn't have some sort of allies/mentoring system for people (of either sex) who are confident/connected that are volunteering to be around if someone's having issues - just as a fall-back. I mean ideally it'd be great if every woman had the confi…

Rumour has it, the image was actually created by someone female - https://twitter.com/skytee/status/285909186565517312

Looks like the cards didn't go down very well with women either.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#156
post #101
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Unless You Can Prove Your Experience Is Widespread I Won't Believe It" http://www.derailingfordummies.com/complete.html#proveit

Yeah, derailing for dummies is a guide to tactics that people on forums use to ensure no questions are asked, skeptics are silenced and shamed, reasonable questions are avoided, and the speech is carefully policed. In this case, no one is allowed to question rachel's account because the user name rachelbythebay contains a name commonly associated with being female. It's likely if the username was "robertonthebus" we…

I'm suprised this doesn't get said more often, I've seen dfd (and gfw) linked many times, on many forums, but rarely are these sources critisised.

Also, your first paragraph is ambiguous, I'm guessing it means: drd is a guide to 'derailing' tactics used on forums, that is itself used to...

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#157

It might be nice to sit around on the throne of privilege and gaze over the people with their problems, seeing simple solutions to all their petty seeming squabbles, but until you feel the anger, dismay, and emotion that comes of being on the ground, in the thick of discrimination and oppression, of not only seeing those problems but having them affect you and those that you love, you cannot "rationally judge" or "ob…

Surely the term 'objectively' is at odds with requiring 'experience' (which would be 'subjective')?

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#158

Let the mansplaining commence...

HN comprises mainly of men doesn't it?

'mansplaining' seems to mean a man explaining something to a woman in a patronising way.

A man posting on HN will be seen mostly by other men.

I can't see how there will be mansplaining.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#159
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, derailing for dummies is a guide to tactics that people on forums use to ensure no questions are asked, skeptics are silenced and shamed, reasonable questions are avoided, and the speech is carefully policed. In this case, no one is allowed to question rachel's account because the user name rachelbythebay contains a name commonly associated with being female. It's likely if the username was "robertonthebus" we…

I'm suprised this doesn't get said more often, I've seen dfd (and gfw) linked many times, on many forums, but rarely are these sources critisised. Also, your first paragraph is ambiguous, I'm guessing it means: drd is a guide to 'derailing' tactics used on forums, that is itself used to...

Also, your first paragraph is ambiguous, I'm guessing it means: drd is a guide to 'derailing' tactics used on forums, that is itself used to...

Yes, thank you.

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