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Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

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Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#121

Post by TheZenPsycho »

w1ntermute wrote: post #69
mcantelon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>she applied for a speaking spot at a conference despite her lack of experience Non-technical are not unusual at that conference as they know they'll get a wider perspective that way.

Even if that is the case, it doesn't change the fact that she clearly felt the other guy would have a better chance of getting the spot. Otherwise, why didn't she just apply like the other guy had already done, and let the best (by whatever standards they want, whether it be experience or perspective) person be selected by the conference organizers? Tell me, how would you feel if you had already prepared and turned i…

She's not a random newb. She invented the thing that he wanted to talk about.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#122

Post by TheZenPsycho »

anewguy99 wrote: post #81
tomwalker wrote: post #11

" I didn’t create Cryptoparty just so a bunch of privileged white boys could.." Why did she drag race into it? Completely unnecessary. She has valid points without this.

This isn't the first time that I've seen anti-white racism on Hacker News[1]. The emotion behind theories of class privilege gets separated from its intellectual content, and people think it is okay to say things like this to their fellow hackers. It isn't. [1] For example, a previous comment thread blamed Elon Musk's success on the fact that he is a white male (as if every white male were a billionaire). I didn't co…

repeat after me. there is no such thing as reverse racism.

By comparing this (oh no, someone called me white on a blog, and said I was successful) to the experiences of oppressed minorities, belittles history, it belittles their experiences. and it makes you look like a spoiled privileged white boy.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#123

Post by jlgreco »

TheZenPsycho wrote: post #122
anewguy99 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't the first time that I've seen anti-white racism on Hacker News[1]. The emotion behind theories of class privilege gets separated from its intellectual content, and people think it is okay to say things like this to their fellow hackers. It isn't. [1] For example, a previous comment thread blamed Elon Musk's success on the fact that he is a white male (as if every white male were a billionaire). I didn't co…

repeat after me. there is no such thing as reverse racism. By comparing this (oh no, someone called me white on a blog, and said I was successful) to the experiences of oppressed minorities, belittles history, it belittles their experiences. and it makes you look like a spoiled privileged white boy.

anewguy99 did not say anything about "reverse racism". He was talking about racism.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#124

Post by Falkvinge »

jlgreco wrote: post #76
moomin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's all just a few bad apples, there's no underlying problem. Just like all the other women with appalling experiences of sexism in the tech community. Seriously, if you can't see a fundamental problem, I seriously doubt you're looking very hard. http://therealkatie.net/blog/2012/mar/21/lighten-up/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cerian-jenkins/the-tech-indust... http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk h…

"a few bad apples" If you are going to use that expression, you should use it in it's entirety. A few bad apples spoil the bunch . A few sexists are creating a a negative situation that permeates the community/industry. Not everyone is to blame, not everyone is guilty of this sexism, but the problem is everybody's.

This.

So many upvotes.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#126

Post by aj700 »

The causes of the problem as I see it.

1. A female who is a geek doubles her hotness to other geeks. 2. The guys in question are in the US, which has a shortage of hot women (which is hotly debated) and an even bigger shortage of geeks in general, and therefore of women who are also geeks.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#127

Post by etherael »

lukev wrote: post #82
etherael wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you be so certain that her interpretation, or your interpretation, of what is happening is actually in line with reality? One cannot simply observe something and immediately react emotionally and simultaneously imagine that they've just completely nailed the core of the issue with complete accuracy and no misunderstanding has taken place whatsoever. From my subjective perspective for example the OP you're res…

Of course we can't know the true motivation of any of the parties involved. But as big a problem as this has obviously become, I'd rather err on the side of calling out apparent sexism when I see it rather than giving everyone the benefit of the doubt and giving sexists the impression that this shit is ok. And if I'm wrong, oh well. Worst case, some people might stop to think about the language they use and how it af…

Worst case; in a field where logic is paramount, emotion trumping it on a political correctness card starts to creep into the culture, poisoning everything it touches and slowly bleeding it into just another mostly political, messy, emotional human endeavour.

Honestly, if that's what it takes for women to feel accepted in this field I would prefer they were not. I sincerely don't believe that to be the case though, it's just convenient for sideline histrionics to label their cause with something more mainstream like gender equality in order to advance their agenda.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#128

Post by thejsjunky »

anewguy99 wrote: post #110
thejsjunky wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's important to note the concept of privilege in this sense is a bit nebulous, is distinct from the common usage, and based on context. I'm partially at fault for the confusion here for talking about "privilege" as an absolute. Privilege is something that basically everyone has. It's about talking about the advantages one has due to factors like sex, race, geography etc over others when all other things are…

I am fairly certain that a black woman going to a high school where 90%+ of graduates are going to university will have many more advantages in life than a white boy attending a high school where ~10% of graduates go to university. I don't think people understand just how dismal such places are. And yet, geographic prejudice abounds, people say things about "ignorant hicks" that they would never say about a class bas…

I think you are not entirely understanding the concept of privilege in this context, or it's purpose. It's a common problem. You seem to regard it as some sort of insult or badge of shame, which is understandable. As I said before, privilege is something basically everyone has. In any situation it's likely that both sides have some privilege.

> I am fairly certain that a black woman going to a high school where 90%+ of graduates are going to university will have many more advantages in life than a white boy attending a high school where ~10% of graduates go to university.

Of course she would, but she would also have many disadvantages. In this example it's important to look at BOTH sides and see what sort of privilege they have.

> Whites do worse in America in a host of ways compared to Asians, such as educational attainment, average income, criminality, and etc

The reality is more complicated than that.

Remember privilege is about relative advantages. White men overall are doing better because not only do better than many (but not all) demographics purely in terms of group-to-group comparisons, if you take a white man versus a comparable member of another demographic they will almost always do better.

A white male compared to an asian male with similar educational and professional histories will earn more on average for the same job...just as men tend to earn more than women all things being equal.

That's why I feel comfortable making the heavily qualified statement that as a group white males are doing better. This is also why there is often a focus on white males in these discussions.

That said, it's important to understand that all sides will have generally have some privilege, and it's important to discuss. I'd also note this has diverged a bit from my original point, which was merely that race enters such discussions because it's relevant to the amount and type of privilege someone has.

So to summarize: in many ways it's meaningless and counterproductive to talk about which group has "more" privilege"....however I think in some comparisons and contexts it is possible and useful, and in those cases when talking in a general sense I think you'd have a hard time coming up with a group besides white males.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#129

Post by rdl »

I wonder if people "in security" are just particularly abrasive assholes, or if there is just observer bias on my part.

In ~20 years of following this stuff, I've never seen a professional discipline as petty and mean as security. On the other hand, I've never gotten as deep into other fields like politics, finance, other parts of computers, etc. From what I have seen, security is an outlier. Network operators are slightly abrasive but nothing approaching security. Firearms and tactical stuff absolutely has the "for guys" thing, but there are women in the industry, and they tend to be treated fairly well. SANs and storage are positively polite by comparison to security. etc.

Re: Dear Hacker Community – We Need To Talk

#130

Post by rdl »

bobwaycott wrote: post #105
w1ntermute wrote: post #5

The problem with this woman's story is that she takes a few cases of explicit sexism and extrapolates them as the reason why everyone is saying rude things to her. Or at least that's how I see it. Perhaps she is just commenting on the general douchebaggery of the community, but even then much of the criticism she received could be seen as fair if she was actually in the wrong. Although sexism is clearly an issue in t…

> Or at least that's how I see it. This is perhaps the most cunningly dangerous thing you could allow yourself as a response. In the case of any kind of discrimination or behavior that is experienced by someone else, please start working to taboo your acceptance of and reliance on "how you see it". It won't help you understand someone else properly. It won't help you spot this kind of situation as clearly whenever yo…

> Nobody would tell a male founder that he wasn't being "level-headed", or tell him to quit, or call him emotional, or anything else that frequently is launched against women.

On that point you're wrong. Just as an example, look at how people responded to Nadim Kobeissi and his own responses to criticism. Nadim is male (the Cryptocat guy). Many of those criticizing him and his responses to technical criticism were female. "not level-headed" would probably be overly mild.

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