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The TSA wants to be everywhere in 2013 - here's why we shouldn't let it

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Re: The TSA wants to be everywhere in 2013 - here's why we shouldn't let it

#51

Post by viraptor »

jrogers65 wrote: post #35
gasull wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2011 and 2012 we had Occupy Wall Street and Anonymous. Probably the broadest protest movement online and offline in a long time, if not ever. And the politicians won. Wall Street won. The TSA won. They all have more power than 2 years ago. If the broadest peaceful protest couldn't make it, what possibly can?

A Ghandi-style peaceful protest would fare better than what the occupy movement did. I went to the one in London and saw that the protesters were following police orders to, for example, stay in one place. This is not the way to make your voice heard and it's not what Ghandi did. You can have an active, non-violent protest. This entails disobeying any and all orders from the authorities (e.g. blocking major roads and…

> blocking access to police and government vehicles, using smoke bombs - anything which causes chaos but does not physically hurt anyone

Do you really recommend becoming a terrorist in the US right now?

Re: The TSA wants to be everywhere in 2013 - here's why we shouldn't let it

#52

Post by rafski »

sneak wrote: post #30
city41 wrote: post #10

The broad and vague ruling that enables the TSA to do anything they want in airports[0] can (and will) be applied to just about any public event. It's probably just a matter of a few years or so before the TSA is searching us at virtually all public gatherings. And there isn't a damn thing we can do about it. [0] http://boardingarea.com/blogs/flyingwithfish/2010/11/20/how-...

The headline should read "everywhere _in the US_". Your comment should read "all public gatherings _in the US_". There is indeed something you can do about it. You can go live in a country where there is no TSA. (This has the added benefit of your productive energies no longer helping fund the TSA, as well, for incomes below about $92,000.) A dozen countries have a similar standard of living as the US, and many of th…

American illusion of freedom isn't something easy to grasp for people from "less free" countries who are, for instance, able to travel freely to Cuba.

American expats who moved permanently abroad have to file their taxes with IRS forever. In any European state your last contact with the country's Revenue is for the last year you lived there (unless you still have income in this country). You don't have to file anything, ever. You're free to go.

From that standpoint, Americans are effectively property of their government.

Re: The TSA wants to be everywhere in 2013 - here's why we shouldn't let it

#53

Post by GFischer »

colbyaley wrote: post #5

After an event I was at was targeted to be blown up, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Portland_car_bomb_plot ) I have changed my views on anti-terrorist teams at events and mass-gatherings. I do find it silly, however, that these teams are supposedly a devision of the "Transit Security Administration".

Even if your premise is valid, do you believe the people at U.S. airports are "anti-terrorist teams"?

Dozens of articles refute the usefulness of the TSA, some referring to real anti-terrorist teams like Israeli ones (see some below, I can't find the best one).

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/forget_t...

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/03/on-...

Even if, like yourself, you want real security, you shouldn't like the TSA.

I'm not an U.S. citizen nor do I live there, but from the outside (plus some experiences by relatives and being shoe-searched on American Airlines) it doesn't look good at all.

Re: The TSA wants to be everywhere in 2013 - here's why we shouldn't let it

#54

Post by mtgx »

sneak wrote: post #30
city41 wrote: post #10

The broad and vague ruling that enables the TSA to do anything they want in airports[0] can (and will) be applied to just about any public event. It's probably just a matter of a few years or so before the TSA is searching us at virtually all public gatherings. And there isn't a damn thing we can do about it. [0] http://boardingarea.com/blogs/flyingwithfish/2010/11/20/how-...

The headline should read "everywhere _in the US_". Your comment should read "all public gatherings _in the US_". There is indeed something you can do about it. You can go live in a country where there is no TSA. (This has the added benefit of your productive energies no longer helping fund the TSA, as well, for incomes below about $92,000.) A dozen countries have a similar standard of living as the US, and many of th…

TSA was present in UK at the Olympics.

Re: The TSA wants to be everywhere in 2013 - here's why we shouldn't let it

#55

Post by negrit »

sneak wrote: post #48
negrit wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analogy doesn't make any sense. I'm glad that everybody doesn't think like you do.

I can explain it: It is not "giving up" to leave a physical location that is uninhabitable. When you can't freely transfer money or have private electronic conversations (telephone, SMS, email, whatever) as a median citizen not under suspicion of a crime, you must leave the place in which you are, just as you would have to leave your private home if it were completely flooded or exposed to the elements.

I completely disagree with that and the recent events in the middle east tend to prove i'm right. People stood up for their right and gain more freedom. They didn't leave the country they stayed and did what they believe was the right thing to do for the country they love.

And it seems to work.

And by the way the people who already left the country and are actually living in europe did nothing because they now have a jobs, families, ... So they have way more to lose by fighting for the right of they original country than doing nothing.

Re: The TSA wants to be everywhere in 2013 - here's why we shouldn't let it

#56

Post by sneak »

negrit wrote: post #49
sneak wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that it has to get worse in the US before it can get better, and I refuse to use violence to accomplish my goals. Therefore, it will take several years, and will require the vast majority of the people who comprise the US's competitive advantage over other countries leaving, first, before the true change really starts. You don't undo things like the NSA's global wiretapping efforts with a direct, frontal as…

Yes, I believe the best is to prove they are inefficient and a complete waste of money.

It was pg who wrote (in Good Bad Attitude, H&P p. 55):

> It would be ironic if, as hackers fear, recent measures intended to protect national security and intellectual property turned out to be a missile aimed right at what makes America successful.

Short of violence, I would like to do everything possible to accelerate that realization in the minds of as many Americans as possible.

I think the best way to do that is to respond appropriately: leave, and go live/work in, support, and pay taxes to other countries instead.

Can you imagine the next Facebook or Google being started somewhere that isn't the USA? I can. Those that are paying attention are starting to realize just how bad the situation there has become.

Re: The TSA wants to be everywhere in 2013 - here's why we shouldn't let it

#57

Post by javert »

sneak wrote: post #44
kelnos wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. And to take it a step further: the US is still a powerful force in both world politics and military might. If all the people in the US who care about these issues simply give up and leave, do you really think the remainder of the US will simply let everyone else in the world live they way they want to? We can already see the effects of this trend in how the US tries to "harmonize" copyright/patents/etc. law i…

I believe that it has to get worse in the US before it can get better, and I refuse to use violence to accomplish my goals. Therefore, it will take several years, and will require the vast majority of the people who comprise the US's competitive advantage over other countries leaving, first, before the true change really starts. You don't undo things like the NSA's global wiretapping efforts with a direct, frontal as…

I was finding some of your comments in this thread inspiring, but you are completlely wrong in this one.

To change the USA politically, it's necessary to change it culturally.

Attacking the roots means attacking the ideas, not the economy.

Say the economy totally collapses, which seems to be the strategy you're advocating. Will the outcome you want come about? No; we will see more facism; the collapse will be blamed on the country not being godly enough by the conservatives, and on capitalists being too greedy by the liberals, who will insist on running even farther from economic freedom (and prosperity).

The solution is to change the ideas of the society to be more principled and pro-freedom.

I do agree with you that it's unlikely to be solved in our lifetimes, though. Changing a culture traditionally has taken generations. Now we're in the information age, so that might help, but there are too few fighting for good ideas; the vast majority of people are accepting more bad ideas, and most people who are fighting are fighting on the wrong side.

Re: The TSA wants to be everywhere in 2013 - here's why we shouldn't let it

#58

Post by sneak »

javert wrote: post #57
sneak wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that it has to get worse in the US before it can get better, and I refuse to use violence to accomplish my goals. Therefore, it will take several years, and will require the vast majority of the people who comprise the US's competitive advantage over other countries leaving, first, before the true change really starts. You don't undo things like the NSA's global wiretapping efforts with a direct, frontal as…

I was finding some of your comments in this thread inspiring, but you are completlely wrong in this one. To change the USA politically, it's necessary to change it culturally . Attacking the roots means attacking the ideas , not the economy. Say the economy totally collapses, which seems to be the strategy you're advocating. Will the outcome you want come about? No; we will see more facism; the collapse will be blame…

> Say the economy totally collapses, which seems to be the strategy you're advocating. Will the outcome you want come about? No; we will see more facism; the collapse will be blamed on the country not being godly enough by the conservatives, and on capitalists being too greedy by the liberals, who will insist on running even farther from economic freedom (and prosperity).

You say "we", as if in that scenario you'd still be there.

I see no other practical method of getting the US government off the fiber backbones and out of the closets of carriers short of undermining the country's competitive advantage in the world economy, and even that will take dozens of years.

The USA PATRIOT Act was 10 years old in October of 2011. The 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendments are dead and buried, and the only response to new laws further abridging those rights we used to have under them is "lol" (e.g. The Daily Show, Colbert Report).

It's delusional to think that it's going to somehow get better when doing so would require large popular support from people who really don't give a fuck about anything and can't be effectively reached en masse save via military-industrial-complex controlled mass media channels that dissenting opinions aren't given access to (e.g. the most recent series of presidential debates).

Re: The TSA wants to be everywhere in 2013 - here's why we shouldn't let it

#59

Post by ynniv »

negrit wrote: post #46
sneak wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a tree falls on your house and splits the roof wide open, allowing snow and rain to fall onto your bed, is it giving up to go and live in another building until the damage is repaired? There are plenty fighting back - just not in the USA, as the window for meaningful and peaceful dissent there is now closed. If you don't see that this is true today, I urge you to research the history of the US federal government's…

Your analogy doesn't make any sense. I'm glad that everybody doesn't think like you do.

Sure it does. OWS was everyday people visibly and peacefully saying that they are unhappy with the way life is treating them. They were then treated as terrorists by the FBI. This sends the signal that unless you are willing to be treated as an enemy of the state, don't complain. Saying this is "uninhabitable" for normal, happy, productive people is not a widely held opinion, but it is rational.

Re: The TSA wants to be everywhere in 2013 - here's why we shouldn't let it

#60

Post by sneak »

javert wrote: post #57
sneak wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that it has to get worse in the US before it can get better, and I refuse to use violence to accomplish my goals. Therefore, it will take several years, and will require the vast majority of the people who comprise the US's competitive advantage over other countries leaving, first, before the true change really starts. You don't undo things like the NSA's global wiretapping efforts with a direct, frontal as…

I was finding some of your comments in this thread inspiring, but you are completlely wrong in this one. To change the USA politically, it's necessary to change it culturally . Attacking the roots means attacking the ideas , not the economy. Say the economy totally collapses, which seems to be the strategy you're advocating. Will the outcome you want come about? No; we will see more facism; the collapse will be blame…

WARNING: Sterotype-based humor ahead!

Q: Why are so many jews pessimists?

A: Because all the optimists stayed in Germany.

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