Make the Metric system the standard in the United States • Hacker News Board

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#451

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 6:46 PM UTC

Nitramp wrote: post #446

lhnn wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mm/dd/yy makes sense to those who use it, given our cultural adjustment. My father's argument for imperial is how easy it is to divide measurements. In woodworking, especially. 10 is divisible by 2 and 5. Powers of two are more flexible for division.

That's why plywood in Europe is usually sold in sheets of 240 cms, i.e. 2.4 m, which seems easier to calculate with, in particular when adding lengths.

Put a tape measure along a sheet of plywood and prepare to be surprised. At least then you'll know why you always had trouble fitting them :)

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#452

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 6:50 PM UTC

dcminter wrote: post #315

decasteve wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another Canadian here (Maritimer). With temperature I find many people talk about the weather in Celsius but the temperature of their homes/thermostats in Fahrenheit. Swimming pools also measured in Fahrenheit. Gym weights, except in Olympic lifting competition, everyone talks lbs. While in the UK I noticed everyone measures weight in stone (1 stone = 14 lbs).

I used to think in stone. But I don't need to know my weight very often and when I do it's usually for ski bindings at european resorts - so now I find myself thinking in kilograms. The only non-metric unit that I think in now is miles - and there are obvious safety/legal problems in switching our speed limit road signs to kilometers.

No, everybody will be going just a tad slow for a while.

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#453

Post by ComputerGuru » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 6:51 PM UTC

Everything else aside, can someone explain to me the obsession with fractions (w/out common denominators, even!) in the imperial system?

I love metric, but I have no problem using the imperial system for my work - however, the fact that all objects made for the imperial system are built on fractions makes it impossible to work with. There is no 0.1" there's only 1/8. There is no 0.15", there's only 5/32. etc.

Given the bottom is almost always a power of two (2, 4, 16, 32, and 64 at the most) the conversion isn't hard but there is a definite cognitive overhead to comparing 1/8" vs 5/32" whereas comparing .125" to .15" is an order of magnitude simpler.

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#454

Post by jlgreco » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 6:53 PM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #442

jlgreco wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of these conversations, even with special cases already marked on kitchen equipment, are all more complicated than the stupidly simple equivalents. Why in the world would you choose imperial over metric, unless you are just an old curmudgeon? You can think the arguments for metric are weak (most of the world disagrees...), but the arguments against it are nonexistent. (Dividing by two is just easy in a decimal nu…

The cost of switching is non zero. I'm not bothered by metric, I can deal with it just fine. I'm just not bothered by standard units. I would never propose switching to standard from metric, but I just don't see what all the fuss is about.

Switching would be done in a lazy manner. I can't see how the cost would be prohibitive, plenty of other countries have managed it so surely America can too.

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#455

Post by benjohnson » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 6:53 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #329

jacquesm wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a typical case of theory and practice. Yes, in theory the US is a country that supports metric. In practice, go and ask anybody in the country outside of the military for the following: - An M10 bolt - a 16mm wrench to drive it with - a 3 meter long 50 mm od pvc drainpipe - a tape-measure that measures only in metric - a highway sign that is posted in km And so on. See how many people can point you to any of t…

Does anyone else on HN work on their own car? My ancient unbreakable domestic mfgr '97 GM car is all metric. Right off the top of my head the oil drain plug is a M12-1.75 bolt. I just replaced the battery two weeks ago, all metric (I think they were M10 bolts? I was in a huge hurry). Seemingly everything on my GM car is metric, and it was built 15 years ago, I can only imagine how metric everything in auto-land is no…

GM and Ford use metric for the last 20 years - but on a lot of their 'easily accessible' bolts, the heads are sized just enough to work with standard hobby imperial sockets. If I remember - That M10 will fit a 3/8" socket too, and M13 is used all over the place and will work with 1/2" socket.

On my wife's Suzuki their M10 will not work with a 3/8" socket, and if you get into anywhere serious on a GM or Ford - those bolt heads will be exact metric with no room for imperial.

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#456

Post by Nitramp » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 6:53 PM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #272

masklinn wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is exactly the problem with the imperial system. You have multiple units for the same thing, and when they are multiples of each other, it is in base 12. That's when you're lucky, can also be 3 (yard to feet), 22 (chain to yard), 10 (furlong to chain), 8 (miles to furlong, and that's why a mile is 5280 feet), 5 (gill to fluid ounce), 4 (acres to rod, gallons to quarts), 14 (stones to pounds) and probably every…

Imagine if we measured time using units of varying multiples. Every time a friend tells me "see you in two weeks", I'm like really? 2 times 7 times 24 times 60? Fucking asshole, do I look like a calculator?

Incidentally, there was a metric calendar, invented alongside the metric system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar

It never gained much hold, probably for two reasons

- its units were too far off the customary units, hard to convert, and didn't fit into the neat 10^3 system. The other units (metres, kilograms) were close or easily convertible into what they replaced (ell and pound, both at approximately 0.5 metres/kilograms).

- the number of days in a year is set, so you never end up at a neatly decimal system with e.g. 10^3 days in a year (and even worse, it's a weird fraction leading to leap years and seconds)

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#457

Post by Nitramp » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 6:56 PM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #436

jlgreco wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool, now what is a third of a quart? Suppose I am recounting a dish I made to someone over the phone in two realities, one with Imperial and the other with metric. Imperial universe: "Okay, now add... say... a third of a gallon of milk" "...third of a gallon.. eehh.. half a pint of milk. Metric universe: "Okay, now add... say... 2/3rds of a liter." "Two thirds of a liter... 666 ml it is then." In the imperial univer…

One third quart = 2/3 cup. I have a 2/3 measuring cup in my kitchen. I've never heard anyone say a third gallon, but just convert to ounces. 128 / 3 = 48. That's 3 pints, btw. Of all the "math is hard" arguments, I think the kitchen measures are the least convincing. Everything is a power of two. You can halve or double a recipe without even thinking.

128 / 3 = 48

Come again? This doesn't quite look like sarcasm, or did you want to prove the OP's point?

Or maybe this is just an explanation for the taste of British food...

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#458

Post by benjohnson » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 6:57 PM UTC

VLM wrote: post #448

jacquesm wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would make good sense. What about things like wheel nuts, hitch attachements and so on? The ford I had had a surprising amount of imperial on it about a decade ago. Presumably under the hood and inside the engine it was all metric though.

"What about things like wheel nuts" I can verify its 30 mm with my wheels/hubs on my car. Supposedly that's "unusual" and most cars that size are 28mm or 32mm so people end up mystified why their 28 doesn't fit something that looks visually at a distance like a 28, or they use a way too big 32 and neatly round off the corners of the nut when it slips. I imagine using an imperial impact wrench is an effective way to r…

32mm is used all over in GM world - 32 just happens to be barely smaller that 1 1/4" inches so it keeps people that only have SAE sockets happy. 1

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#459

Post by alwaysdoit » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 6:59 PM UTC

acangiano wrote: post #255

veidr wrote: post #114

It's obviously a great idea, and obviously (to Americans) unlikely to happen in the lifetime of anybody reading this forum. Does anybody else from America remember being taught the metric system in public elementary school, and being told that we'd be switching to it over the next few years? I was taught this around second grade (1981), I think based on the Metric Conversion Act of 1975 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki…

Much better visual evidence: http://signword.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/423399_101506340...

DD/MM/YYYY doesn't make any sense either unless you write numbers with the most significant digit on the right. Only YYYY/MM/DD actually makes sense (which is why lexicographic sorting automatically works when you use it).

Re: Make the Metric system the standard in the United States

#460

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 7:01 PM UTC

tadfisher wrote: post #449

jacquesm wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would make good sense. What about things like wheel nuts, hitch attachements and so on? The ford I had had a surprising amount of imperial on it about a decade ago. Presumably under the hood and inside the engine it was all metric though.

I daily-drive a 1997 Ford Ranger pickup. The engine was produced in Cologne, Germany, and thus everything under the hood is metric. The body & chassis was built in Dearborn, Michigan, and thus everything not under the hood is SAE.

That perfectly matches my Ford experience.