How To Lose Weight And Influence People • Hacker News Board

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#31

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 10:36 AM UTC

eof wrote: post #28

jacques_chester wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to elaborate? I can only suspect that, as usual, this will turn out to be a dispute over the boundaries of the system we're discussing (single-human-body-mass-system vs economy-society-and-single-human-body-system). If you genuinely believe that net calorie balance isn't the sole determinant of long term average mass, then I'd like to know what else it could be. Saying "oh it must be more complex than that!" isn…

For example, it is possible I am eating 2000 calories a day, burning 1900 and shitting out 100. EDIT--because I am too lazy to wait to post to daughter comment-- It is possible, for example, that if I eat a FOO, which has 100 calories, it will change effeciencies of systems in my body in tangental ways so as to cause it to burn 5% more calories than it would have if I didn't eat a FOO. I could also eat a candyBAR whi…

You should then not gain weight. Those 100kcal also count as calories out for the simplified model[0] used for feedback weight control.

[0] - http://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/e4/rubberbag.html

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#32

Post by jacques_chester » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 10:36 AM UTC

eof wrote: post #28

jacques_chester wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to elaborate? I can only suspect that, as usual, this will turn out to be a dispute over the boundaries of the system we're discussing (single-human-body-mass-system vs economy-society-and-single-human-body-system). If you genuinely believe that net calorie balance isn't the sole determinant of long term average mass, then I'd like to know what else it could be. Saying "oh it must be more complex than that!" isn…

For example, it is possible I am eating 2000 calories a day, burning 1900 and shitting out 100. EDIT--because I am too lazy to wait to post to daughter comment-- It is possible, for example, that if I eat a FOO, which has 100 calories, it will change effeciencies of systems in my body in tangental ways so as to cause it to burn 5% more calories than it would have if I didn't eat a FOO. I could also eat a candyBAR whi…

Hence net calorie balance. All the words are meaningful in that description.

For the same reason, I say "long term average mass". Weight is sufficiently noisy that I can be pinned to the mat on a silly debate-club technicality while the larger issue remains unaddressed.

When I say "net calorie balance" I'm not talking about subtracting the calories on the elliptical machine from the calories on the chocolate bar. That's an approximation, at best, because of the stunning complexities of the underlying system.

Actual net calorie balance is unobservable.

What you can observe is the outcome of net calorie balance, which is long term average body mass: aka whether you're getting fat or not.

You don't need to actually observe all the complexity of the underlying system. You need only observe the inputs and outputs. Are you getting fatter? Eat less, or change what you eat. Want to get bigger? Eat more, or change what you eat.

There's no need to build a blinkenlights dashboard of every variable of every bodily system. You just look at the scale or the mirror and change your behaviour.

[edited for larger reply to your edit]

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#33

Post by jacques_chester » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 10:41 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #27

jacques_chester wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you me (apart from the keto)? Because this is pretty much what I am trying to convey.

I don't think I'm you, but I do agree with what you wrote :). I also found the basic understanding of control theoery... enlightening, in many areas of life, not only dieting. I hate when people argue over whether A causes B or B causes A, and fail to notice a feedback loop in work.

Learning about feedback loops has definitely been enlightening.

Somewhere I have the bones of a super ginormo followup post to my original "fat and simple" one where I discuss causality itself in more depth (for example, I came up with 4 axes for categorising kinds of causality; I can only imagine that some long-dead philosopher has beaten me to it).

Lots of these debates actually resolve around definitions.

Anyhow, the other stuff I've written under the Systems heading may be of interest to you[1].

[1] http://chester.id.au/category/systems/

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#34

Post by Tichy » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 10:41 AM UTC

shaunxcode wrote: post #29

Tichy wrote: post #11

I've been a vegetarian since I was 18 and always was very slim, until a couple of years ago (mid thirties - actually not a strict vegetarian anymore in recent years). The vegetarian diet was of course very rich in carbs. I don't see a way to go low carb as a vegetarian. That I was slim with a "high carbs" diet for 20 years also makes me doubt the carbs theory a bit. There seem to be other factors. I exercise less, bu…

Just my anecdote/experience - but I've been vegan since I was 18 (now 30). I knew that as I got older my metabolism would drop off but a little over a year ago I weighed 248 (I am 6'1") which was a wake up call. To rectify things I picked up running on the reg again and cut the shit from my diet e.g. no added/processed fats at all (you can get more than enough from whole grains, legumes, and vegetables) and I am down…

Very cool, thanks! I actually never really planned my diet, for most of the time as a vegetarian I consumed a lot of dairy products and bread, both things I'd rather cut out of my diet. It is not so easy to find suitable replacements, though.

In recent years I have also consumed more and more sweets, which are probably a factor, too. Currently I'd like to lose ~15kg (about 33lb I think?). 10kg of that I gained in the last three years. It's not that bad, but it's scary that I don't really know how to reverse the trend.

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#35

Post by eof » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 10:42 AM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #21

mipapage wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While admittedly I haven't taken the time to read your entire blog post, I'm throwing this link out there for your perusal: http://thatpaleoguy.com/2012/12/19/calorie-rants-and-ketosis... Quite simply, you have to consider how a calorie takes the path to becoming a calorie in our system, imo.

My overarching theme in my blog post is that the underlying complexity (which absolutely exists) is utterly optional for actually controlling weight. You just don't need to know it or understand it. Eat less --> weigh less and Eat more --> weigh more Are sufficiently good that you can form a working control system with them. No other variables need be observed or cared about.

Your logic is flawed. The only limiting factor is calories in. It is impossible to gain weight for calories you have not eaten.

None of your analysis in anyway shows, or even hints at the 'fact' that Eating more will necessarily make you weigh more. It is totally possible that someone can eat 3k calories a day, but no carbs, and this could have all types of effects; like a slight increase in body temperature due to a different rate of caloric burning, or maybe not everything is getting digested and he is shitting out 1.5k calories a day for some dietary reason you don't understand.

In the same way you cannot say "well logically, I put 5 gallons of gas in a car and went 25 miles, therefore there must be 1 gallon of gas left" without knowing specifics about an engine; you cannot do the same with humans, which you essentially are. Further, our bodies/engines are dynamic; and some of our internal systems are more or less effecient depending on a number of factors that you don't understand (for example, it is possible that eating certain types of calories have chemicals/enzymes related to them that cause other systems in the body to change effeciency). You have one side right:

    If you want to lose weight you can be absolutely sure that by cutting down calories, below a certain threshold, you will lose weight.

But, then you go too far and say this is the only thing at play. In fact, you don't have any logical reason to make the second statement; it admittedly seems to make sense at face value, but ketosis is absolutely real, and people are shedding weight and still eating a ton of calories, regardless of whatever graphs/analysis you are making.

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#36

Post by fingerprinter » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 10:47 AM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #12

eof wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offence but your post is overly simplistic and not in anyway convincing that your actual thesis is a complete picture of what is going on. It is undeniably true that calories in vs calories out is a driving factor, it is not however the only factor. Your article shows how you think about diet/weight, and is not really reflective of any strong scientific understanding, and, in my opinion, needlessly disregards "… i…

Care to elaborate? I can only suspect that, as usual, this will turn out to be a dispute over the boundaries of the system we're discussing (single-human-body-mass-system vs economy-society-and-single-human-body-system). If you genuinely believe that net calorie balance isn't the sole determinant of long term average mass, then I'd like to know what else it could be. Saying "oh it must be more complex than that!" isn…

Net calories alone don't tell the whole story. A big factor in weight loss and gain are hormones and calories don't say a thing about those.

For instance, to gain weight (muscle), bodybuilders will consume large amounts of carbohydrates (for a variety of reasons), but the most important is spiking insulin in the presence of protein to shuttle the protein to the muscles to begin building them after breaking them down.

Similarly, obese people should be cutting all carbs out b/c of the same insulin spike.

But there are other foods which are highly insuligenic. Whey protein, for instance, can spike insulin. MCT oil at high doses can. Heck, egg whites with no fat (no yolk) to balance it can spike insulin.

The point is that calories are, at best, an incomplete picture. At worst they are misleading and a distraction. I'm of the believe that net calories still matter, but only to the point that you actually know what you are doing and are eating the right macronutrients in the right ratios.

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#37

Post by fingerprinter » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 10:50 AM UTC

stickdick wrote: post #6

jacques_chester wrote: post #2

> After the first week, which is always the hardest, I'd lost 10 pounds. Dropping carbohydrates from the diet causes a drop in retained water. For instance, some energy is stored in the muscles as glycogen, which binds with water on an approximately 1-to-3 basis. Each gram of glycogen binds ~3g of water; so when you cut carb intake and begin to break down stored glycogen, you unsurprisingly lose weight quickly. Paleo…

> Then I went to Kauai for a week and gained 10 pounds Is probably ~8lbs water. I'd be amazed if someone could gain 10lbs of fat in a week. That clocks in at about 50k total calories?

It was water and glycogen.

When I'm running low carb (for whatever reason) and have a carb refeed, I routinely gain 8-10 pounds in a 24 hour period.

Same for people making a weight for powerlifting/boxing/wrestling. They manipulate their water/salt, getting all the glycogen out of their system before reintroducing them to "pump" them back up etc etc

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#38

Post by forgottenpaswrd » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 10:50 AM UTC

Peroni wrote: post #10

Devils Advocate Time. Technically I'm morbidly obese. I'm 6'3" and I weigh in just shy of 300lbs. This shocks most people as I don't look like someone who weighs close to 300lbs although I'm very obviously overweight. I'm working hard to lose weight purely to prevent myself from dying young so that my son has a Dad he can grow old with. In the mean time, let me dispel a myth: Fat != Lazy I have absolutely no doubt th…

I'm over 6,7, or as a European 2m height, and 90kilos.

Being tall means you could weigh more and be healthy, and it depends on your body structure, like bones and so. But probably you need someone else and not you to judge what is your ideal weight.

"I can maintain focus at a consistently high level throughout my typical 14 hour work day"

I have yet to see a person that really works 10 h/d, let alone 14 hours a day, but probably your definition of work is different than mine.

"Being overweight isn't always indicative of laziness, failure or a lack of discipline."

I have a very close family member that is taller than you and also weights more, agree with the laziness thing but I will call it a failure in some way, thinking on the contrary is just deceiving yourself.

For me being morbid obese is the result of the culture and the way of living, specially work routines and eating, everybody could see the statistics of 40 years ago in Europe and US, The only thing that significantly changed is that, what we eat, pre made food with lost of sugar and bad quality fats(enormous unbalance between Omega 6 and 3).

Discipline means nothing if you don't know what to do.

My advice to you is to develop different routines,improve what you eat, let the torture thing for the masochistic fanatics. Start thinking that you are in a hole and you need to get out of it and your life will be better when you get out(if its so good it will be even better).

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#39

Post by fingerprinter » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 10:52 AM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #21

mipapage wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While admittedly I haven't taken the time to read your entire blog post, I'm throwing this link out there for your perusal: http://thatpaleoguy.com/2012/12/19/calorie-rants-and-ketosis... Quite simply, you have to consider how a calorie takes the path to becoming a calorie in our system, imo.

My overarching theme in my blog post is that the underlying complexity (which absolutely exists) is utterly optional for actually controlling weight. You just don't need to know it or understand it. Eat less --> weigh less and Eat more --> weigh more Are sufficiently good that you can form a working control system with them. No other variables need be observed or cared about.

I'd content that is absolutely awful advise for people. It gives them free reign to drink soda, eat pizza and sugar without knowing what it is doing to their body so long as "they are within the calorie limit".

This is bad.

See my other comment on hormones. They play a HUGE role and not understanding them leads to statements like "it's all about the calories" or "I'm only eating 1000 calories" etc etc.

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#40

Post by jacques_chester » Wed, Jan 02, 2013, 10:53 AM UTC

fingerprinter wrote: post #36

jacques_chester wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to elaborate? I can only suspect that, as usual, this will turn out to be a dispute over the boundaries of the system we're discussing (single-human-body-mass-system vs economy-society-and-single-human-body-system). If you genuinely believe that net calorie balance isn't the sole determinant of long term average mass, then I'd like to know what else it could be. Saying "oh it must be more complex than that!" isn…

Net calories alone don't tell the whole story. A big factor in weight loss and gain are hormones and calories don't say a thing about those. For instance, to gain weight (muscle), bodybuilders will consume large amounts of carbohydrates (for a variety of reasons), but the most important is spiking insulin in the presence of protein to shuttle the protein to the muscles to begin building them after breaking them down.…

> Net calories alone don't tell the whole story.

It's all you need to know to lose or gain weight.

> A big factor in weight loss and gain are hormones and calories don't say a thing about those.

It depends how we're drawing the boundary of the system being modelled. But if the boundary is a single human body, then net calorie balance is a forcing function. No hormonal configuration can alter the laws of physics. If you maintain a net deficit, you will shrink and, if you don't stop, you will eventually die from starvation.

It needn't be linear. Heck, I've lost so much fat in the past year that my base metabolism has actually dropped by a meaningful amount. But so long as I adjust my inputs, I can affect the outputs. I am my own controller.