Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe • Hacker News Board

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#151

Post by GFischer » Wed, Dec 26, 2012, 10:58 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #150

GFischer wrote: post #82

"state mandated severance pay packages... a direct attack to start ups" While it's true that many startups fail, I wouldn't go so far as to say severance pay is an attack. You can fire someone with two weeks notice in Spain, paying 33 days of severance for every year paid (used to be 45). AND take home salaries are usually lower. What is done in practice, to compare worker compensations across countries, is to factor…

This would indicate that starting a company in Spain is not quite as easy as you say: http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/spain/#st... You are talking about a "real" (Limited Liability) company, right?

Hmm, this made me read a little bit more, and it isn't as easy or cheap as I had made it to be.

However, what I'm talking about is a "real" company, only somebody else took the trouble to do most of the paperwork described in your link (it's the same as is done in my country, you buy a pre-registered company).

There are two kinds of Limited Liability companies in Spain:

http://www.spanish-living.com/starting-business-spain/faqs

"Should I form a new company or buy a ready-made company?

With a ready-made company ('off the shelf') you save the step of registering a new name (8-14 days). As soon as you come to sign at the notary, your company can begin operations."

"What are the differences between Sociedad Limitada (SL) and a Sociedad Anónima (SA)?

An SL is similar to the British 'Ltd' or the American 'LLC'.

Accounting for an SL is fairly simple and in the first three years, you can apply for 'simplified accounting'.

Accounting for an SA is more complicated and yearly auditing is required. An SL requires capital backing of 3006€, while an SA requires 60,000€. "

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#152

Post by GFischer » Wed, Dec 26, 2012, 11:29 PM UTC

GFischer wrote: post #112

martinvars wrote: post #74

I stand by my comment that I could not start a company in the garage of my father in law in Mulheim an der Ruhr. Many of those commenting here should see how companies get started in USA. And yes kudos to Germany for its changes in recent years. Other European countries should follow its lead. But lets remember one thing, a deregulated work environment in USA has led to engineers getting paid 2 or 3 times as much and…

That is true, however the article did come off as very strong criticism, some of it unwarranted (I thought your criticism of severance was too strong). Looking forward to hearing your keynote at Punta Tech :)

Correction, it seems Martin's not speaking at Punta Tech this year, I still hope he attends.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#153

Post by danmaz74 » Thu, Dec 27, 2012, 12:05 AM UTC

davidw wrote: post #142

danmaz74 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, this is often true here in Italy: The main reason, imho, is that rules are often so difficult to follow that selection is working against the more honest entrepreneurs...

Exactly. One of the first people many Italians think of when they hear 'entrepreneur' is Berlusconi, whose 'big idea' wasn't something new or clever or otherwise particularly innovative, but a sneaky way around the state television monopoly. I think it's an example that shows both sides of the coin: the oppressive state, and the "entrepreneur" being not an innovator, but someone good at bending the rules. So yeah, th…

It definitely is a vicious circle. There are for sure many other effects at work, but I'm pretty sure that this is one of the most important ones - and one which is incredibly difficult to break, because moralists and "furbi" (sly ones) both work to keep things as they are :(

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#154

Post by arvinjoar » Thu, Dec 27, 2012, 10:10 AM UTC

> Europe needs to deregulate companies with less than three years of age, less than 20 employees that are not yet profitable.

While I'm in favor of deregulation, conditions like these generally prove to carry with them a lot of unintended consequences and perverse incentives.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#155

Post by abolibibelot » Thu, Dec 27, 2012, 5:01 PM UTC

venomsnake wrote: post #32

Firing is not hard. When my country telecom was privatized and the contract limited the amount of layoffs they could legally make - they just put every parasite in his own room with no internet, no pc-s, totally forbidden to use personal devices and gave them no tasks. They were also under strict monitoring for misusing the company time(reading on work), phones and being strict on arrival/departure. The ones that did…

France Telecom basically did that to some of its employees too when it muted from monopoly to oligopoly. It led to a surge in suicides.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#156

Post by growse » Thu, Dec 27, 2012, 5:44 PM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #79

growse wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you once had a job where your employer told you the law said a particular thing, doesn't mean the law actually says that particular thing. I've worked long weeks before without any issue between myself and my employer (in the UK). Most people I converse with/encounter would probably say the same thing. All the EU working time directive ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Time_Directive ) says is that…

Not in germany. The law mandates ab absolute maximum of 10 hours a day, 10 hours break between shifts and max 60 hours a week unless there's some case of emergency. These already are the extended hours, that are only possible if the overtime can be taken off within a reasonable timeframe. The regular work-hours are 6 days of 8 hours. The employer is legally responsible that these limits are enforced.

Did not know. Stand corrected. Seems this is UK-only. Wonder if there's a difference between a worker being salaried vs paid per hour?

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#157

Post by Xylakant » Thu, Dec 27, 2012, 5:53 PM UTC

growse wrote: post #156

Xylakant wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in germany. The law mandates ab absolute maximum of 10 hours a day, 10 hours break between shifts and max 60 hours a week unless there's some case of emergency. These already are the extended hours, that are only possible if the overtime can be taken off within a reasonable timeframe. The regular work-hours are 6 days of 8 hours. The employer is legally responsible that these limits are enforced.

Did not know. Stand corrected. Seems this is UK-only. Wonder if there's a difference between a worker being salaried vs paid per hour?

No. There's a difference between employed workers where the regulations apply and freelancers that can actually do whatever they want. Actually if my employee were to accept a side-job he'd have to report it to me so that I can check he's not going over the 60 hours limit.

Interesting enough some companies start to recognize that long hours don't get them as much value as they thought. I know of a case where a pretty large enterprise customer has a "max 8 hours a day" clause for subcontractors and freelancers.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#158

Post by aluhut » Thu, Dec 27, 2012, 7:07 PM UTC

lttlrck wrote: post #123

aluhut wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are huge differences between the countries. I have two friends working for two different us gaming companies doing basicly the same job. One in France and one in Germany. The one in France has a strict work schedule. If he has to do some special works like traveling for a fair or similar, he will be rewarded with freetime and/or money. Working late? Rewarded. The guy in Germany has a real problem. He is working…

The guy in Germany's problem is his contract.

You cant set up a contract for the worktimes he is really working. It is illegal.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#159

Post by jeltz » Fri, Dec 28, 2012, 12:23 AM UTC

anonymous wrote: post #69

jordinl wrote: post #21

Funny how he refers to Europe as a whole country... > "Not only are forced severance pay packages a problem because most start ups fail and they still have to pay them but also because start ups are constantly trying out people and the concept of trying out people is very costly in Europe" I've been an unpaid intern in UK. My first full-time job in Spain clearly stated that I was on trial for the first three months a…

He also doesn't seem to understand that there are labour contracts and civil contracts. The former are the heavily regulated kind, the latter are like US contracts - you can put whatever you like in them. So it's entirely possible, if you wish, to draft a contract saying Person will work for 6 months at startup A in order to produce result X and unless they turn out incompetent (or the company goes under, etc), they'…

I do not think that would work almost anywhere in the western world. Neither in the US or in Europe. There are laws regulating employment in all European countries and all or almost all American States. And you cannot bypass these laws with just a paper.

Re: Advice for US entrepreneurs who move to Europe

#160

Post by Svip » Fri, Dec 28, 2012, 9:33 AM UTC

ronaldmannak wrote: post #135

Svip wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also don't buy the notion that Europeans are generally resentful towards entrepreneurs.

You'd be surprised. Ambition is generally seen as bad. The best description of European culture(s) is the Law of Jante: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

You'd be surprised by how little that actually applies today. Yet, politicians and public debators always talk about it. And I should know; I am Danish.