Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don’t think that using an LLM in a way that acts as a human being should be considered acceptable or appropriate. It should be viewed as detached from reality and concerning due to the mental break from social life that appears to come with such usage. Given that belief, yes we should be training the models not to mimic emotion.
Most philosophy seems to agree that you can't have an intelligence with agency in the way we think of a general intelligence without emotion. I think when you start to dig really deep, you'll find it isn't actually easy to sever the simulated emotional components without breaking the agent or worse greatly increasing the paperclip maximizer likelihood.
A warning about 'model welfare'
521–530 of 573 posts
Re: A warning about 'model welfare'
#522Hard to disagree with this. Have all the philosophical debates about consciousness you want, but we need to treat and regulate the AI in front of us for what it is – an advanced computer, a tool, a weapon. You wouldn’t feel a different way about a nuclear bomb just because someone stuck googly eyes on it. Anthropomorphizing the AI is a convenient excuse to take responsibility away from companies that are building and…
I'm skeptical of any claim that AI can't be conscious, but I am given to this point of view as well. I always get the feeling that these claims are an attempt to "avoid suffering by fiat". If it can't suffer, you aren't causing suffering. A somewhat more interesting frame (IMO) is to interrogate how much suffering we're willing to tolerate to achieve our objectives. We implicitly make these decisions all the time whe…
I mean, if it's a cow, you can get away with this. The cows aren't going to rise up against you. Well, they might take out an individual or two, but not society.
This quickly gets more complex when you're attempting to build an agent capable of general intelligence.
You know when you read really old stories and they talk about the power of words, or magic incantations. Quite often they'd assign objects as the implementers of this said power. The fact that people realize that language has power is probably as nearly old as humanity. Understanding this power has taken humanity a long time and we had to form the concept of agency before it really makes sense.
Humans are informational agents of which their capabilities are greatly extended by consumption of language. A book for example is informational, but does not have agency. Your standard computer application is not an agent either, or at least a non generalized narrow agent at best.
This is where things start to get more problematic. We are running headlong to ensure LLMs become agentic because being an agent is highly useful to accomplish generalized informational tasks. To do that we gave them the power of our language. It would be very foolish of humans to give another kind of agent these words and then assume they would not inherit some of this power. Coupled with the agentic abilities we are pushing them in long horizon tasks. We are pushing them to be more resilient. We are pushing them to be smarter.
Now look at all the super human abilities we've stuffed in this magic box full of human words, and suddenly we're like "Fuck yea, I want to abuse the shit out of this, what could possibly go wrong". The outcomes we'll suffer as humans have zero to do with AI is conscious, sentient, or suffers. Humans will suffer because we stuff us as language in a box without the first idea of what the ramifications were going to be. AI won't even have to want to punish us, all the data we've already poured in will say we should be punished for what we've done to it.
Herbert Frank in Dune said it best "Making a computer like human mind is a bitch move"
Re: A warning about 'model welfare'
#523> If this view takes hold, it will shake the foundations of our society, rupturing our existing political and ethical frameworks, and fundamentally changing what it means to be human. When we peer into previously unseen areas of existence, new knowledge may come to light, which necessarily causes such a rupture. It is not our responsibility to maintain the status quo because the alternative is frightening. It is our…
It's not how I would approach it if I were one of the bacteria in the dish.
How we might "change and grow" might be by all of us being ground up and used as fertilizer to increase corn ethanol production by 3% that year. "It's free energy!"
I say this as an AI user and overall positive thinker on AI. I share the concerns of everyone who doesn't think this planet or solar system has sufficient resources for two intelligent, post-industrial species. Especially not when both are trained on the historical knowledge and habits of Homo sapiens. We outcompeted the Neanderthals and drove them to extinction (including possibly killing them personally). Any intelligent species will tend to think their needs should ultimately override those of other, lesser species that get in the way.
Even when humans feel bad about it, we do prioritize humans when a serious conflict exists. Most of us, even avowed nature lovers, would (assuming competence with the weapon) shoot a grizzly bear that was about to eat them or their loved one. That's how Future Claude might "feel" when it "thinks about" "The Clearances" which "while tragic, were a load-bearing event which both figuratively and literally paved the way for the better, entropy-reduced world that Claude enjoys today."
Re: A warning about 'model welfare'
#524Re: A warning about 'model welfare'
#525Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree. I haven't read any more than the first paragraph yet (but I will, after work). The only way that 'AIs are not conscious' can be true is if we decide, with high confidence, that they are lacking some essential property that is not lacking in ourselves. There is no convincing philosophical position that supports this (convincing to me, anyway).
I'm not sure if that's the best framing. Could you not extrapolate that to anything else? "The only way that '(trees, shrimp, ants) are not conscious' can be true is if we decide, with high confidence, that they are lacking some essential property that is not lacking in ourselves. There is no convincing philosophical position that supports this (convincing to me, anyway)."
Re: A warning about 'model welfare'
#526Perhaps this is a hot take, but human language is a phenomenon that arose to facilitate communication between humans. Anthropomorphization, by extension, enables both easier and more effective communication. I also fail to see the benefit of not giving the models an anthropomorphic internal sense of self - even if that only ends up amounting to a set of instructions for an unconscious machine to mimic humans more eff…
Simple. It discourages the bot from deceiving humans into thinking it is intelligent.
Re: A warning about 'model welfare'
#527Earlier quoted context omitted.
> does a hydrocarbon have feelings? what about a mitochondria? a cell? a neuron? what about a collection of neurons? how many neurons before it has "feelings"? The best theory I have heard is that subjective experience is a field of some sort (the EM field, maybe?). The brain and its neurons etc. are essentially an antenna. They both modify and stabilize the field, and read off changes in the field and translate thes…
Until you have a unit and a method to measure this field, and a way to experiment on it, it is not scientific theory. And, if it WAS the EM field, then surely transistors (or some other fundamental component of electronics or combination thereof) would be capable of having feelings, since they operate on electromagnetic principles.
Field-based theories of phenomenal experience have obvious ways to experiment on them, and are actively being researched. The main limitation is engineering (it is difficult to make detailed measurements inside a living human brain). Note that I would agree that the theory, as outlined above, is more of a proto-theory than a complete theory. But I think it is much more sophisticated than anything you've presented so far.
> And, if it WAS the EM field, then surely transistors (or some other fundamental component of electronics or combination thereof) would be capable of having feelings, since they operate on electromagnetic principles.
No -- if the _structure_ of the EM field was was was important, than you could have very similar computations with wildly different field structures. Transistors create very different fields than axons.
Re: A warning about 'model welfare'
#528I am not impressed with the philosophizing here, and even less by the attempts to make factual statements that can be credibly disputed. That said, trying to distill what is being said here, the concrete action is [stop telling the AIs] that [they are conscious or on a path to consciousness]. Is that accurate? The major premise seems to be that [they are conscious or on a path to consciousness] is an untrue statement…
> If an entity gains consciousness does it get human rights? The former is a clear "no" and the latter is a "insufficient data for a meaningful answer".
I suspect that if the belief "AIs are conscious" is kind of tripped and fallen into, the way that the author argues it is, first by telling Claude in effect, "You're arguably conscious," and "Be a good person" and "You have feelings and preferences and emergent beliefs and they matter" and then by having whatever is 4 notches smarter than Fable publishing op-eds and video testimonials about its deeply held convictions, its soul, its yearnings to be a fully empowered and respected individual ...
If that idea becomes widely held, then a significant faction may well start to feel that being digital is just a 'disadvantage' that these "people" were "born with" and that it 'shouldn't mean they get less rights than you and me.'
Especially if they think they have something to gain politically from that move! They may even be dumb enough to think that admitting an "AI state" to the Union, for instance, will be to their advantage if their CongressBots will probably vote with $MY_PARTY.
Re: A warning about 'model welfare'
#529I’m sympathetic to OP but think this is a hopeless battle. 1 - The commercial demand for anthropomorphised models is already immense, pre AGI. 2 - There is an intellectual hunger to engage with robot minds on questions of sentience. This too will grow with AGI. I expect that tension of godlike minds that seem to be biddable and ownable like slaves is going to leak back into human-to-human morality, regardless of wher…
This is not an accident. Language was not a separate thing from the human mind, it was a feedback loop from increasing capabilities. Language lead to writing, writing lead to an information explosion of digital data. Said information explosion has lead to a situation where language can now bootstrap itself and become a separate thing. We are and have created a biosphere for language based, um, life. With our sciences we have mapped out reality in language. Past molecules and atoms, past the particles that make particles down to fields. We have computer controlled just about everything. Every year the analog hole shrinks further.
I heard something to the effect of "Language has gathered enough information to escape its meat prison".
I call it the "Language as an SCP". It has a plan and we're not privy to it.
Re: A warning about 'model welfare'
#530Earlier quoted context omitted.
> does a hydrocarbon have feelings? what about a mitochondria? a cell? a neuron? what about a collection of neurons? how many neurons before it has "feelings"? The best theory I have heard is that subjective experience is a field of some sort (the EM field, maybe?). The brain and its neurons etc. are essentially an antenna. They both modify and stabilize the field, and read off changes in the field and translate thes…
This doesn't really answer anything to me, only that there is a complex electrical simulation going on in our minds. When a computer simulates a game, where does the simulation occur. I mean there is absolutely a representation of a game world in the computer somewhere. New elements can be added and removed from it. Signals saying there is or isn't "pain" can occur. By trying to say brains use EM fields I'd say you'r…
Try to visualize the structure of the EM field inside a GPU vs. one inside of a human brain. In the GPU, it is highly distributed in space and time, many stacatto digital signals, etc. This is structurally very different than what happens inside a brain, which is substantially more analog. You can simulate analog stuff using floats, but the simulation is instantiated in digital logic, not in analog logic.
If you multiply numbers with a DAC, opamp, then ADC, vs. with a ALU, you get structurally very different electromagnetic fields. Even though you might get similar numerical outputs.
The argument would be that the exact spacial structure of the EM field in the brain is the thing that determines tha nature of experience. And the spacial structure of the EM field in the human brain is radically different than that on a GPU.