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Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

bbc.com

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Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#371

Post by pphysch »

apt-get wrote: post #166
tyrabound wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's odd that you would jump to "Russian op" and hedging by _not_ asserting that it is "definitely" one; but it very well could also be and arguably even is far more likely an act by someone who would benefit form scaring the public and manipulating the affected governments. I'm not going to assert at all, one way or another who it may be because it could be several actors with interests in producing outcomes of fear…

> One thing that logic would dictate though is that Russia would be extremely low on the list of suspects since they gain nothing and are negatively affected in every manner possible by being in any way behind such actions. Or one could choose not to take this in isolation from all the acts of brazen and identified sabotage Russia does, slashing deep-sea cables in international waters with their shadow fleets, organi…

"brazen and identified" is doing a lot of work here. IIRC the cable thing was an anchor accident, and everyone is doing psyop campaigns (Western psyops being far more advanced and sophisticated than their enemies). Nord Stream was definitely not an accident and we know who did that.

Implying that Russia somehow invented or is the undisputed leader in "psyops" is a popular hallmark of a low-information civilian, a narrative promoted by arch-propagandists like Peter Pomerantsev and Anne Applebaum.

As many other comments have said, cui bono?

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#372

Post by vintermann »

vincnetas wrote: post #264
vintermann wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean what I said: if you're being attacked by drones, then no one can fault you for trying to sabotage the production of those drones, even if they're made in a different country than the one which is sending them against you. But, you can and should fault Russia for getting into that position in the first place, that their neighbor is attacking them back with drones.

but why are you attacked by drones thats the million dollar question...

Which I answered?

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#373

Post by hn_submit »

They're trying to dissuade European NATO members from continuing their support for Ukraine.

Things are going badly for Russia. The war has lasted longer than the Great Patriotic War against Nazi Germany and Ukraine is actually taking back territory. Over half a million Russians are dead and probably a million wounded. The economy is imploding due to the enormous expenditures (30% or more of GDP is spent on the war). Just like in WWI Russia is running out of men to continue the fight. It either has to give up or escalate.

I believe Zelensky made a big mistake insulting Putin when things were going stellar at the front a couple months ago. By making it personal Putin is doubling down until he defeats Ukraine or Russia is destroyed in a war with NATO.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#374

Post by tharmas »

edouard-harris wrote: post #250
apt-get wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not asserting this is definitely a Russian op (given the amount of simultaneous farmers' protests and all in NL today), but their modus operandi for foreign operations of this kind involves paying random thugs a few hundred to a couple thousand euros to carry out acts of sabotage using whatever items they have on hand. The items don't need to match, the people involved don't need to know each other.

Correct, this is their exact MO and has been for decades. "Random thug" recruitment notwithstanding, part of the point of such ops is to prove to themselves that they can, in fact, reach out and touch a target - i.e., exercising the entire operational chain from C&C down to the minutiae of execution. A kind of integration test for sabotage, if you will. (Not saying this specific incident is or isn't anything in parti…

or make it look like it was the Russians so you can get the public on board with a war against Russia?

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#375

Post by tharmas »

apt-get wrote: post #238
willy_k wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might wanna update your facts on that pipeline.

I'm referring to telecom cables in nordic and baltic waters, not nordstream.

You will recall the propaganda steering suspicion towards the Russians on the Nordstream pipeline.

Who has the most to gain by blaming the Russians?

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#376

Post by FeloniousHam »

throwaway85825 wrote: post #351
spwa4 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ideal scenario is everyone suspects it's you but can't prove it. Why? EU countries have shown time and time again they won't do anything. I mean for God's sake, Russia was caught sending THREE remote controlled flying bomb on a German airfield, with another one found by a passerby before it was launched. They contained professionally made Russian explosives. There is no doubt who did it. This was not the first,…

Because the Kremlin wants europe to take an overt action to justify mobilization. There are many better assymetric ways for europe to retaliate.

I think it's to slowly increase offenses _that won't lead to military response_. The response to each individual incident, worse than the one before, kinetic action can be delayed because "this was only a little worse than the last one".

This compounds because NATO needs to act collectively to effectively act militarily (maybe Poland could go it alone).

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#377

Post by sedan_baklazhan »

birdsongs wrote: post #207
sedan_baklazhan wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Particularly, Europe is constantly trying to seize Russian ships. Re: flattening Moscow and Petersburg: all "potential" threats are really pathetic.

The russian shadow fleet, you mean, illegally operating against sanctions imposed for the invasion of a sovereign nation and the use of war crimes? Yeah, they're going to get seized. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_shadow_fleet Still posting without any sources?

>illegally operating against sanctions

The only legal sanctions on Earth are those imposed by UN Security Council. All the rest is just an agressive action. The Western sanctions themselves are not legal in any way.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#378

Post by dnautics »

tharmas wrote: post #374
edouard-harris wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, this is their exact MO and has been for decades. "Random thug" recruitment notwithstanding, part of the point of such ops is to prove to themselves that they can, in fact, reach out and touch a target - i.e., exercising the entire operational chain from C&C down to the minutiae of execution. A kind of integration test for sabotage, if you will. (Not saying this specific incident is or isn't anything in parti…

or make it look like it was the Russians so you can get the public on board with a war against Russia?

Or make it look like you're trying to make it look like it was the Russians so you can get the public on board with a war against NATO?

Bet you didn't see the uno reverso false false flag coming

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#379

Post by sedan_baklazhan »

birdsongs wrote: post #199
sedan_baklazhan wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Europe is not a country I'm just using your own words, my dude: > It seems like Russia is everything Europeans think about daily. >Every each case when Ukraine has used European weapons to attack Russia; also every case when European countries seized Russian ships. It's not an attack when you're defending against an invasion. Go take your weak propaganda-farm talking points elsewhere.

>your weak propaganda-farm talking points

I always take such personal insults as a confession in loosing an argument.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#380

Post by krisoft »

chmod775 wrote: post #293
DrScientist wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideal scenario is everyone suspects it's you but can't prove it. You have both the desired threat, but no concrete biases for an official response. Also an uncertainty limits action - it might be a random event, it could even be a false flag. One of the problem's here is narratives are being spun by multiple actors and it depends on who you believe.

You don't need a real basis for a response. There's nobody here enforcing any rules. If you wanted you could claim you have evidence, without having any. Doesn't matter. "This better stop or there will be sanctions, and if its not within your power to stop it, tough luck" is a valid response. Whether that's wise is another question. Here's a recent example where Germany so far claimed that it tied the attack to Russi…

> You don't need a real basis for a response. There's nobody here enforcing any rules.

First order, maybe. But the clearer the attribution the more political capital there is to act. Just look at the article. We don’t know, and won’t know for a while, if this was caused by Russia or the FDF protestors or who. That is all confusion all kind of actors can use to criticise a government who puts more sanctions on Russia.

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