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Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

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Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#241

Post by Den_VR »

apt-get wrote: post #166
tyrabound wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's odd that you would jump to "Russian op" and hedging by _not_ asserting that it is "definitely" one; but it very well could also be and arguably even is far more likely an act by someone who would benefit form scaring the public and manipulating the affected governments. I'm not going to assert at all, one way or another who it may be because it could be several actors with interests in producing outcomes of fear…

> One thing that logic would dictate though is that Russia would be extremely low on the list of suspects since they gain nothing and are negatively affected in every manner possible by being in any way behind such actions. Or one could choose not to take this in isolation from all the acts of brazen and identified sabotage Russia does, slashing deep-sea cables in international waters with their shadow fleets, organi…

As they say, if you want peace then prepare for war.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#242

Post by century19 »

gambiting wrote: post #122
cynicalsecurity wrote: post #106

Europeans don't realise how close war is to their homes. Russia won't stop unless it's stopped.

Define Europeans - us Poles absolutely understand the danger. In fact I'd say we're already at war with Russia, the way they attack our democracy, our institutions and politics daily. But someone in Portugal might not see it the same way we do.

Russians are Europeans.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#243

Post by dolmen »

earth-tattoo wrote: post #223

Europeans really hates sabotage when it happens to them. Nobody blinked an eye when Nord Stream (a civilian infrastructure) was blown up.

FYI Nord Stream had one end in Germany, which happens to be in Europe. So Nord Stream was driving oil to Europe, and some Europeans mattered.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#244

Post by ithkuil »

paganel wrote: post #142
apt-get wrote: post #3

Just days after a similar (criminal) incident causing a train to derail in France: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2026/09/12/french-p... "close to Renault's factory in the town of Cléon", which is now preparing to start manufacturing drones for the French military, in collaboration with Ukrainian military-industrial groups.

[flagged]

There are certainly consequences in participating in a war against Russia.

There are also consequences in letting Russia take Ukraine militarily.

Whatever you think about the motivations and the desired end goal, actions and lack of actions both have consequences

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#245

Post by spwa4 »

DrScientist wrote: post #204
hgomersall wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want to keep it deniable? What's the point in this sort of sabotage if nobody knows you did it?

The ideal scenario is everyone suspects it's you but can't prove it. You have both the desired threat, but no concrete biases for an official response. Also an uncertainty limits action - it might be a random event, it could even be a false flag. One of the problem's here is narratives are being spun by multiple actors and it depends on who you believe.

> The ideal scenario is everyone suspects it's you but can't prove it.

Why? EU countries have shown time and time again they won't do anything. I mean for God's sake, Russia was caught sending THREE remote controlled flying bomb on a German airfield, with another one found by a passerby before it was launched.

They contained professionally made Russian explosives. There is no doubt who did it. This was not the first, or the 10th time they got caught. I mean Russia murdered someone in the UK with polonium, for God's sake.

The idea that the Kremlin is worried in the slightest that you can prove it's them is absurd. They leave their fingerprints knowing there will be no reaction.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#246

Post by koiueo »

aisvm wrote: post #184

This is getting concerning. Multiple locations and deliberate disruption suggest this may be more than random vandalism. Hopefully investigators find out who is behind it and why.

Oh, these wannabe intellectualist.

Russians been messing with your elections, blowing up factories, inducing illegal immigration, destroying infrastructure and openly threatening to turn Europe into a radioactive dust. Meanwhile people: "hopefully investigators find out".

Seriously, this is ridiculous

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#247

Post by vincnetas »

vintermann wrote: post #234
hgomersall wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want to keep it deniable? What's the point in this sort of sabotage if nobody knows you did it?

If the main point is slowing/frustrating drone production? It would honestly be kind of fair game to sabotage production of drones that would be used against you, even if they're made in a country you're not at war with --- if it wasn't for Russia having a lot of responsibility for that war in the first place (to put it mildly).

what do you mean "fair game"? by the same logic russia attacking ukraine is also "fair game".

"hei cmon im just atacking my neighbor its fair game, what else should i do"

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#248

Post by microtonal »

Telemakhos wrote: post #220
Someone wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just days after a similar (criminal) incident causing a train to derail in France From what I read, the similarity ends in “both involved trains”. This chain of attacks seems to have used short metal pipes (“Footage published by Dutch public broadcaster NOS on Tuesday showed police carrying what appeared to be metal pipes - about 1.5 metres (5ft) long”) to short a connection, making safety systems signal “there’s a…

I'm surprised people jump to Russia instead of the radical left. Left-wing environmentalist terrorists attached shunts to rail lines to short out the safety signals back in 2020 in the US [0]. Vulkangruppe has been conducting sabotage in Germany, and a 48-year-old named Daniel V was arrested on suspicion of sabotaging Germany's electrical grid because he hated fossil fuels [1]. The French had left-wing environmentali…

Several reasons:

- Extinction Rebellion and other environmental groups always claim the action pretty quickly and openly in NL.

- If you look at the locations of sabotage, it’s all close to the ‘farmer heartland’. Most left-wing and environmental groups would do it in the randstad.

Most likely it’s farmers. They announced very heavy protests today and also burnt hay near highways to create smoke clouds. Possibly nudged by Russian operatives because the like to sow dissent.

But we’ll see.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#249

Post by jaapz »

phoghed wrote: post #102
crote wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of those, the "tractors on highways" is the only one which has resulted in someone dying. So much for rational...

Driving is dangerous business. We tend to forget since it’s so commonplace and integral to our lives. Cars have gotten much safer though, no longer the top cause of TBI in the US

The cause was tractors stopping all traffic on a highway, setting up show with barbecues and what not. Then some people drove into the tail of the traffic jam.

Has nothing to do with driving being dangerous, but with the choices of these farmers to start a demonstration in the middle of a highway

They already did it a few times before, and they were warned that they should expect killing people. The question was not if, but when. They still did it.

Re: Suspected sabotage causes major Netherlands rail disruption

#250

Post by edouard-harris »

apt-get wrote: post #126
peri-cl wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they look similar, the synchronicity notwithstanding. The sabotage in France was a 250–300 kg rail fragment (per your link). The objects in the Netherlands look much smaller, and look like they're intended to short-circuit two rails to trigger a signal fault. In one place they found car jumper cables with clamps attached to both rails, https://nos.nl/video/2631081-startkabels-van-spoor-bij-meppe... ( "S…

Not asserting this is definitely a Russian op (given the amount of simultaneous farmers' protests and all in NL today), but their modus operandi for foreign operations of this kind involves paying random thugs a few hundred to a couple thousand euros to carry out acts of sabotage using whatever items they have on hand. The items don't need to match, the people involved don't need to know each other.

Correct, this is their exact MO and has been for decades. "Random thug" recruitment notwithstanding, part of the point of such ops is to prove to themselves that they can, in fact, reach out and touch a target - i.e., exercising the entire operational chain from C&C down to the minutiae of execution. A kind of integration test for sabotage, if you will. (Not saying this specific incident is or isn't anything in particular, just commenting on the general MO.)

If one were in a charitable mood, one could think of this as a "just in case" measure of ongoing capability assurance in the event of a broader conflict. In a less charitable mood, one might imagine it as preparation for proactive action. In either case, if you don't do this kind of sub-threshold stuff at least occasionally, you often discover that when a real conflict erupts, the capabilities you thought you had are in fact literally or figuratively rusty. (See the Russian army's logistical debacle early in the Ukraine war for a recent example.)

Most top tier nation states do some version of this; each one has its own style. The Russians are somewhat unusual in that they care less than most who knows or suspects them of this kind of activity.

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