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People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

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Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#231

Post by iinnPP »

Gamemaster1379 wrote: post #211
devindotcom wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting to me that three different people have responded with the same "I'm also aphantasic and dream normally" start to their message.

When you express you have aphantasia to someone, one of the most common questions is whether you can dream. As someone with it: Yes I can dream. They're so real they are lifelike. And not just visually. In my dreams, reality and history itself can be different and to me, history didn't change. It just is. I rememeber in one dream I was some sort of captain and I saw one of my closest friends. We'd been crewmates for…

That's fascinating. Do you gain access to facts or knowledge that are verifiable afterwards? Have you ever become fluent in a foreign language for a dream?

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#232

Post by suslik »

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #221
suslik wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am also aphantastic, and I don't even get to dream properly. I had a dream perhaps no more than 10 times throughout my life, and almost always due to some unusual circumstances (very rough hangover, grief, broken heart). Even experiences with rather high doses of psilocybin or LSD were profoundly non-visual for me, and I made several attempts to get there.

Interesting that you say you had no visuals from LSD. How high a dose? It's surprising to me, because as far as I understand it, psychedelic visuals aren't really akin to daydreams or internally generated imagery, but abnormal processing of external imagery. At least for relatively mild experiences. Something like a DMT breakthrough is a whole other story from what I hear, though I've never been there myself.

That was more than a decade ago, but I believe the highest I went for was about 4-500ug (according to the vendor, it was on a postal stamp so there can be quite some variance). I was exploring psychedelics several months in a row while increasing the dose, so there might have been some tolerance buildup. And it wasn't that I had no visuals at all - juar there was nothing visually profound, just some things shifting and moving here and there, people outside looking a bit strange, etc. Felt more like strange, weird drunkenness than anything. It was not at at all an uninteresting experience - just extremely cerebral. I tried DMT several times by the way, but couldn't break through - it gets very scary very fast, and the taste is like smoking a plastic bag, which was in itself quite off-putting.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#233

Post by throwaway91033 »

Gamemaster1379 wrote: post #211
devindotcom wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting to me that three different people have responded with the same "I'm also aphantasic and dream normally" start to their message.

When you express you have aphantasia to someone, one of the most common questions is whether you can dream. As someone with it: Yes I can dream. They're so real they are lifelike. And not just visually. In my dreams, reality and history itself can be different and to me, history didn't change. It just is. I rememeber in one dream I was some sort of captain and I saw one of my closest friends. We'd been crewmates for…

I don't have aphantasia but I sometimes also have dreams that are so realistic that when I wake up I feel as if it was some type of alternative reality. In some cases it is also as if I am watching a "movie" where the life I am experiencing is not my own, but I will still know each person.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#234

Post by andyclap2 »

jumploops wrote: post #181
sowbug wrote: post #167

I'm aphantasic. I dream normally, seeing all sorts of imagery. I have accidentally had a couple lucid dreams in my lifetime, which got me interested in the methods to trigger them intentionally, all of which have failed. The Wake Back to Bed (WBTB) method has been especially frustrating, because I'll see my usual nothing when my eyes are closed, but then for the very briefest instant I see a dream image that immediat…

I'm also aphantasic and dream normally, and I once got really into lucid dreaming for a ~semester in college. My best successes would occur after drinking a cup of coffee and immediately taking a nap before a study session. It was great, I "learned how to fly" and could "morph" my dream into whichever direction I wanted. One thing stuck out though: whenever I would try and focus on something, I would see a black dot…

I'm not aphantasic, but that's exactly the experience I get when coming out of a lucid dream. Except it's my expected surroundings not black. Gets a bit weird and inceptiony when it's the wrong surroundings! Given the number of cultural references along these lines, I suspect it's not uncommon.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#235

Post by suslik »

khazhoux wrote: post #223
suslik wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am also aphantastic, and I don't even get to dream properly. I had a dream perhaps no more than 10 times throughout my life, and almost always due to some unusual circumstances (very rough hangover, grief, broken heart). Even experiences with rather high doses of psilocybin or LSD were profoundly non-visual for me, and I made several attempts to get there.

How’s your sleep quality? I (aphantasic) only ever dream on weekends when I sleep in over 8 hours (rare), and having to get up to pee after 4 hours also cuts in.

Depends on the coffee intake and stress; when I am on vacation, I sleep 7-8 hours without waking up. I am lucky that I don't need to pee during the night, though.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#236

Post by b800h »

khazhoux wrote: post #224
sowbug wrote: post #167

I'm aphantasic. I dream normally, seeing all sorts of imagery. I have accidentally had a couple lucid dreams in my lifetime, which got me interested in the methods to trigger them intentionally, all of which have failed. The Wake Back to Bed (WBTB) method has been especially frustrating, because I'll see my usual nothing when my eyes are closed, but then for the very briefest instant I see a dream image that immediat…

Question for visualizers: is imagery held steady in your dream, or does it constantly shift and morph? I’m aphantasic and like I’ve seen many people report here, I can kinda almost conjure up images but can’t hold them steady even for a microsecond. It immediately disintegrates and can’t be brought back. In my dreams the imagery always shifts, but not in the same way. It’s held enough to be recognizable before changi…

Certain types of meditation training involve specifically this faculty - the ability to hold a particular image steady in the visual imagination. Having the ability to vividly imagine a visual scene or a simple geometric shape is very much a muscle which can be trained; the brain is very plastic in this regard.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#237

Post by sph »

I keep reading about people with aphantasia in threads like these, and I never hear from who don’t have it explain what do they see and how vivid it is.

Does everyone have aphantasia? Is it like ADHD where finding a person that doesn’t claim to have it is pretty much impossible?

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#238

Post by applfanboysbgon »

sph wrote: post #237

I keep reading about people with aphantasia in threads like these, and I never hear from who don’t have it explain what do they see and how vivid it is. Does everyone have aphantasia? Is it like ADHD where finding a person that doesn’t claim to have it is pretty much impossible?

On an article about left-handedness, would you expect the comments to be full of people talking about how they're right-handed?

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#239

Post by b800h »

applfanboysbgon wrote: post #238
sph wrote: post #237

I keep reading about people with aphantasia in threads like these, and I never hear from who don’t have it explain what do they see and how vivid it is. Does everyone have aphantasia? Is it like ADHD where finding a person that doesn’t claim to have it is pretty much impossible?

On an article about left-handedness, would you expect the comments to be full of people talking about how they're right-handed?

You can't deny it's a bit popular right now. "Aphantasia is the new AuDHD".

Doesn't mean it's not real, but I'm sure we'll see it creep into "I have aphantasia because I'm unable to crisply visualise a fully detailed lifelike scene from memory with my eyes closed".

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#240

Post by throwaway91033 »

al_borland wrote: post #196
JoshTriplett wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do. I can "play it back" in my head, with full music/lyrics/chords/etc.

I have aphantasia, and I think my experience with music is similar. I can think about a song, think about the melody, lyrics, etc… but I don’t hear it. If I hear a couple notes that remind me of a song, I can go through the rest of the intro, get to where the lyrics start, and get to the chorus and remember the name of the song (if it doesn’t come to me instantly), but it’s nothing like playback. It’s more like my in…

> I sometimes wonder if everyone is talking about the same thing, but using different language to describe it

As someone who can hear music "on demand" in my head I can say that's not the case. I can hear the music with instruments and the original singer's voice. It's not as clear as listening to actual music, and in some cases it may be incomplete if I havent' listened to the song for a while, but it's definitely a playback.

As an example, right now I am thinking of The Trooper by Iron Maiden, and I can hear the drums, base, guitars and the lead singer's own voice. I can also separate the different instruments if I want to listen to just the guitar or the singer's voice because I know the song well. I can also change the lyrics or the guitar solo if I want.

It's the same as imagining an image. It is not a perfect reproduction of a "photo" that pops up in my mind, but it is still an image with colours, shapes and faces.

I understand where you are coming from, because you don't have the necessary context. When I read about people who "see" music in colours or smells, or even simple colour blindness, it is hard to imagine. But I still accept that it exists

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