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People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

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Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#221

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl »

suslik wrote: post #220
sowbug wrote: post #167

I'm aphantasic. I dream normally, seeing all sorts of imagery. I have accidentally had a couple lucid dreams in my lifetime, which got me interested in the methods to trigger them intentionally, all of which have failed. The Wake Back to Bed (WBTB) method has been especially frustrating, because I'll see my usual nothing when my eyes are closed, but then for the very briefest instant I see a dream image that immediat…

I am also aphantastic, and I don't even get to dream properly. I had a dream perhaps no more than 10 times throughout my life, and almost always due to some unusual circumstances (very rough hangover, grief, broken heart). Even experiences with rather high doses of psilocybin or LSD were profoundly non-visual for me, and I made several attempts to get there.

Interesting that you say you had no visuals from LSD. How high a dose?

It's surprising to me, because as far as I understand it, psychedelic visuals aren't really akin to daydreams or internally generated imagery, but abnormal processing of external imagery. At least for relatively mild experiences. Something like a DMT breakthrough is a whole other story from what I hear, though I've never been there myself.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#222

Post by Traubenfuchs »

There is the theory of too many people being born, with not enough souls to populate all those bodies.

In that theory, people without an inner monologue and without imagination are soulless, real life NPC.

To me, this inner world is an essential property of being human.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#223

Post by khazhoux »

suslik wrote: post #220
sowbug wrote: post #167

I'm aphantasic. I dream normally, seeing all sorts of imagery. I have accidentally had a couple lucid dreams in my lifetime, which got me interested in the methods to trigger them intentionally, all of which have failed. The Wake Back to Bed (WBTB) method has been especially frustrating, because I'll see my usual nothing when my eyes are closed, but then for the very briefest instant I see a dream image that immediat…

I am also aphantastic, and I don't even get to dream properly. I had a dream perhaps no more than 10 times throughout my life, and almost always due to some unusual circumstances (very rough hangover, grief, broken heart). Even experiences with rather high doses of psilocybin or LSD were profoundly non-visual for me, and I made several attempts to get there.

How’s your sleep quality? I (aphantasic) only ever dream on weekends when I sleep in over 8 hours (rare), and having to get up to pee after 4 hours also cuts in.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#224

Post by khazhoux »

sowbug wrote: post #167

I'm aphantasic. I dream normally, seeing all sorts of imagery. I have accidentally had a couple lucid dreams in my lifetime, which got me interested in the methods to trigger them intentionally, all of which have failed. The Wake Back to Bed (WBTB) method has been especially frustrating, because I'll see my usual nothing when my eyes are closed, but then for the very briefest instant I see a dream image that immediat…

Question for visualizers: is imagery held steady in your dream, or does it constantly shift and morph?

I’m aphantasic and like I’ve seen many people report here, I can kinda almost conjure up images but can’t hold them steady even for a microsecond. It immediately disintegrates and can’t be brought back.

In my dreams the imagery always shifts, but not in the same way. It’s held enough to be recognizable before changing into some other random nonsense like happens in dreams.

(I dreamt last night a StarCraft 2 YouTuber I follow was spamming raven auto-turrets over some people from a helicopter, which they shot down with a machine gun, and the youtuber survived the crash but he didn’t look at all like himself and that confused me, but we were in an Italian castle, and I was hiding from gangsters, but my boss had traveled to Italy and we were in a hospital where he was getting “torso reduction” and I put my hand on the small of his back, and it was my wife)

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#225

Post by khazhoux »

dcw303 wrote: post #176
sowbug wrote: post #167

I'm aphantasic. I dream normally, seeing all sorts of imagery. I have accidentally had a couple lucid dreams in my lifetime, which got me interested in the methods to trigger them intentionally, all of which have failed. The Wake Back to Bed (WBTB) method has been especially frustrating, because I'll see my usual nothing when my eyes are closed, but then for the very briefest instant I see a dream image that immediat…

I'm also aphantasic and dream normally. I have some intermittent ability to lucid dream. I have noticed that if I am acting as a "passenger", the imagery is vivid and I will be able to recall everything. Sometimes something in the dream will prompt me to think. It might be entering a phone number, or reading text. As soon as I engage the process of thinking, the imagery goes away. Long lucid dreams for me rely on me…

FWIW I’m exactly like you. My ability to replay music sometimes surprises me.

Sometimes I’ll hear a song on the radio I haven’t heard in decades and be able to anticipate tiny details precisely (like, “here’s where the harmonica comes in in Karma Chameleon” or “here’s where the fretless bass is gonna bend a note”. You?

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#226

Post by khazhoux »

asdfman123 wrote: post #187
antonvs wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, but the subject is not people with no imagination. It’s people whose imaginations aren’t visual.

I see

Insensitive comment for this thread, but I suspect on purpose ;-)

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#227

Post by khazhoux »

Let’s do a quick survey for aphantasics:

1. How’s your audio-lization? Can you hear music (accurately) in your head? Can you pick out instruments, pause, rewind, etc?

2. Can you visualize pure motion? Maybe you can’t visualize a woman clearly, but can you visualize the motion of a woman doing, e.g., jumping jacks? (For me, I can see complex motion clearly without seeing any underlying shape, if that makes sense)

3. Can you visualize just colors? I discovered that I can conjure up colors without any associated shape. Takes a bit of patience but the color eventually arrives. Quite a thrill for an aphantasic!

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#228

Post by vidarh »

D-Machine wrote: post #208
vidarh wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find these takes kinda insulting because they directly dismiss as false direct personal experience of a lot of us. I have experienced visualisation. I know the vast chasm between the two states from direct first hand experience. So do many others.

This is partly why only aphantasics argue for the "it is only semantics" explanation. For anyone else, this explanation makes no sense, because they have at least one vivid example showing otherwise. Only if you have no vivid visual experiences does this argument have any appeal. Also the well-documented cases of acquired aphantasia are especially troubling for the skeptical "semantic disagreement" cases, given that…

Yeah, that is my experience too. I consider myself to have aphantasia - I have had that one vivid experience outside my dreams. Outside of that it's all been blank my whole life. Without that one experience maybe I'd doubt it too, but it really is fascinating how many of the people who insist it can't exist give descriptions of their experience that suggest they have it.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#230

Post by vidarh »

jaggederest wrote: post #214
vidarh wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can describe someone from memory, and I can draw them, but I can't see them unless they're in front of me (or I'm looking at a photo).

Can you draw them and then look at the drawing? I'm just wondering about the "bootstrap" ability, for lack of a better term.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Of course I can look at the drawing. But it still doesn't produce any image that persist when I'm not looking at it.
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