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People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

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Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#111
post #99
post #3

Aphantasiac here, happy to discuss or answer any questions

I posted a question but apparently it was sh dow b nned automatically by HN. Here it is again if anyone cares: https://sharetext.io/j3wjsivi

yeah looks like it triggered a keyword filter to mark it as dead to me. Or a few people flagged it.

Either way it seemed relevant enough to me that I vouched for it.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#112
post #69
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that mean? You can recite a description you’ve read or heard, but what about looking at a photo and describing it?

I can describe someone from memory, and I can draw them, but I can't see them unless they're in front of me (or I'm looking at a photo).

[deleted]

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there are obvious giveaways. Among your friends and colleagues there are people who can’t sing and people with perfect pitch perception despite no training, ones that can barely coherently speak but can write beautiful prose and vice versa, some can stare at code for 12h straight while others find the sheer idea of it horrifying. There’s people who believe in ghosts or even believe they’ve seen ghosts while other…

I don't see how people being different from one another (uncontroversial, obvious basic fact) means that people have fundamentally different phenomenal experiences. You're conflating ability with experience when they are not the same thing.

Do you know the anecdote about Feynman and John Tukey doing a mental counting task and the one being able to talk while he's doing it and the other not, and then the reveal is they are using a completely different mental representation:

https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/3591/1/Feynman.pdf

worth a read, to me it kinda indicates that different abilities can be enabled by differences in how to mentally represent something. but yeah its debatable how much of difference in ability comes from/with a difference in experience but I my gut feeling is a lot more than you'd think. feels really hard to prove it as we only know what it's like to be us.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#114

I still think this is fundamentally about how difficult it is to describe qualia.

It's a real phenomena. Mental imagery corresponds to voluntary activation of the visual cortex[1]. The quality of the self-reported imagery corresponds to the degree of activity in the visual cortex[2] while imagining some visual scene. People with aphantasia have little to no visual cortex activity. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4595480/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8186241/

I had thought this was all people misunderstanding each other's descriptions of their inner subjective experiences; but if this is accurate I switch sides.

Electricity in the brain is all we are.

Also its more aligned with the general theory of mind, that destinct variety of peoples would naturally observe destinct variations of sensory qualia and exhibit different internal subjective experiences.

Naturally conscious language fails to articulate these gaps because they are themselves the lack of words.

platos cave, etc

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#115
post #3

Aphantasiac here, happy to discuss or answer any questions

Does it apply to audio as well? If you think of a song you know well, do you feel like you "hear" the music in your head, as though playing back an audio file? If you think of a movie scene you've seen, what is that like? Can you recount what was in it, even if you can't "picture" it? Or does this also prevent you from recalling the details of the scene?

Aphantasic here - I constantly have music playing in my head to the point of it being slightly annoying. If I really concentrate, I can separate out the parts like stem separation, but generally it's a fairly high fidelity recreation of the most prominent parts. There was a brilliant thread on Mastodon a couple of years ago where people (mostly musicians) were describing their inner-music abilities - mine turned out to be very ordinary. The only time mine ever approach what many of the others described is when I'm very slightly stoned - then my brain starts to compose original music at extremely high fidelity in basically any genre. I just wish I could get it out of there.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#116
post #36
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a musician, but don't "hear" music in my head. I have an extensive memory of lyrics, and can guess the next notes of a song, but I use my inner monologue to sing or hum it in my head, I don't hear it. I can recall the visuals of a movie scene similar to how I can tell you how my office is organized. It is a spatial memory of where things are and aligned with each other. I don't replay the scene in any sense of th…

I'm pretty sure this is the default. Who literally hears music when thinking of it.

Most I think, especially among musicians, which makes the GP fascinating to me!

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#117
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's 5 ft tall, sharp features, curly white hair. i can remember imagery facts, but have not visual memory

But if you only remember facts, can someone else pretend to be that person you remember with those facts?

That's a fascinating question - I'm aphantasic and mildly face blind (I thought the two female leads in Disclosure Day were the same person for most of the movie and that we were jumping back and forth in her timeline). I've always assumed I'm face blind because of the aphantasia, but I know several aphantasics who have no problem recognising faces.

In answer to the question though, no - even as someone with face blindness, the faces of people I've known and loved for a long time are burned in somewhere - I just can't access that part of my brain at will.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#118
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you complete tasks like answering the question "a square shaped piece of paper is folded once diagonally so two previously opposite corners are now on top of each other. Does the distance between the other two corners change during this fold?" I think most people would answer this by just imagining it, but I'd think the way I've described it is pretty hard to follow if you can't picture it. If you can answer the…

(Also aphantasic) I think about the axis on which the fold is performed. Because of “square” and “diagonal”, for the two corners to touch, the fold axis must lie on both of the “other two corners”. A reflection about an axis does not change points on the axis, both points are unchanged, so their distance is also unchanged.

Yes that's correct. How do you answer this one: a hollow cube lying with one face on the horizontal like a die on a table has a hollow pyramid inside with the same base horizontal on the bottom like a usual pyramid. Inside the pyramid is as large a sphere as will fit. A horizontal ray is cast from outside of the cube through the entire structure, passing through each surface it would hit. The location of the ray is not specified, only that it is horizontal.

1) State the order of the surfaces it hits/passes through if you choose to cast it at a point where it passes through the maximum number of surfaces in the structure.

2) Is it possible to choose a different point where it would still pass through the cube but would pass through a different number of surfaces? (such as by missing the pyramid or sphere or both). State the distinct counts of how many surfaces it could pass through depending on where you cast it horizontally, like how many different counts exist. (Being tangent does not count as passing through a surface.)

I would answer this question by just picturing it and moving the ray around in my mind. How do you do it?

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#119
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq

seems ironic (and not at all trustworthy)! if you're right, you can't actually imagine what being able to do it would be like

Are you arguing against the GP having it because you can't imagine what that's like? Is that the irony you're talking about?

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there are obvious giveaways. Among your friends and colleagues there are people who can’t sing and people with perfect pitch perception despite no training, ones that can barely coherently speak but can write beautiful prose and vice versa, some can stare at code for 12h straight while others find the sheer idea of it horrifying. There’s people who believe in ghosts or even believe they’ve seen ghosts while other…

I don't see how people being different from one another (uncontroversial, obvious basic fact) means that people have fundamentally different phenomenal experiences. You're conflating ability with experience when they are not the same thing.

But abilities (and inabilities) are intrinsically tied to phenomenal experiences. And you can even shape your experience by learning. It feels different to look at code, speak a language, play an instrument or do a kickflip when you’re an expert (or exceptionally (un-)talented). Some people are biologically or developmentally predisposed to different abilities, and if you talk to them enough, you’ll learn that the way they experience these abilities is different from yours. I am conflating it because this is conflated in reality. This should be obvious in hindsight - your brain doesn’t have separate ability and qualia compartments, you know.
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