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People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

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Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#11

I still think this is fundamentally about how difficult it is to describe qualia.

It's a real phenomena. Mental imagery corresponds to voluntary activation of the visual cortex[1]. The quality of the self-reported imagery corresponds to the degree of activity in the visual cortex[2] while imagining some visual scene. People with aphantasia have little to no visual cortex activity.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4595480/

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8186241/

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#13
post #3

Aphantasiac here, happy to discuss or answer any questions

What does you mother look like?

This is not a memory nor a detail recall issue. The visual part is just not there, but I know how my mother looks like :)

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#14
post #3

Aphantasiac here, happy to discuss or answer any questions

how is your proprioception? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

e.g. if you put your hand behind your back and move it up and down randomly, then stop suddenly, can you tell if it's stopped closer to your legs than your neck?

i cant think of a better test for it :( (clinicians?)

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#15

I still think this is fundamentally about how difficult it is to describe qualia.

I think this is cope to avoid the realization that some people are walking around with drastically different life experiences.

I think a lot of people that can "see" in their mind are over-estimating their ability and a lot of people who can't are under-estimated their ability.

It's probably a spectrum like a lot of things are, except in this case it is exceptionally hard to to know where you fall on it. The gap may not be as wide as it sounds. Almost everyone is still a functioning thinking human afterall. If the gap were so wide it seems like there would be more obvious giveaways in human behavior.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#16
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does you mother look like?

She's 5 ft tall, sharp features, curly white hair. i can remember imagery facts, but have not visual memory

What does that mean? You can recite a description you’ve read or heard, but what about looking at a photo and describing it?

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#17
I’ve worked as a professional photographer for twenty years and I visualize absolutely zero with my eyes closed. It’s only recently that I learned of aphantasia. Even on most psychedelic journeys I don’t have closed eye visuals, NN-DMT being the consistent exception. Everything is more of just a “knowingness”.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#18
post #3

Aphantasiac here, happy to discuss or answer any questions

That's an embarrassing question, so no real need to answer it. But... men, ahem, like to imagine sometimes, well, naked ladies. As a substitute. When they don't have a partner and no pornography. But people with aphantasia can't imagine anything. This sounds like a significant practical hurdle. Is it? (Unless one thinks masturbation is bad anyway.)

Edit: this comment is shadowbanned, apparently because of a keyword filter.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#19
post #3

Aphantasiac here, happy to discuss or answer any questions

Does it apply to audio as well? If you think of a song you know well, do you feel like you "hear" the music in your head, as though playing back an audio file? If you think of a movie scene you've seen, what is that like? Can you recount what was in it, even if you can't "picture" it? Or does this also prevent you from recalling the details of the scene?

I'm a musician, but don't "hear" music in my head. I have an extensive memory of lyrics, and can guess the next notes of a song, but I use my inner monologue to sing or hum it in my head, I don't hear it. I can recall the visuals of a movie scene similar to how I can tell you how my office is organized. It is a spatial memory of where things are and aligned with each other. I don't replay the scene in any sense of the word

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#20
This kind of matches my experience. Not sure if I have Aphantasia, but my mental visual imagery is pretty sparse and not that well formed.

And yet, I can somehow imagine the look of a specific person or thing. I can't really see it as a vivid image, like actually seeing something in real life, but I have a sense of imagining it as visually distinct from any other image.

My audio imagination is top-notch though, I can replay songs and sounds in my head perfectly and vividly.

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