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People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

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Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#21

Post by kridsdale1 »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #11
suddenlybananas wrote: post #4

I still think this is fundamentally about how difficult it is to describe qualia.

It's a real phenomena. Mental imagery corresponds to voluntary activation of the visual cortex[1]. The quality of the self-reported imagery corresponds to the degree of activity in the visual cortex[2] while imagining some visual scene. People with aphantasia have little to no visual cortex activity. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4595480/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8186241/

And the claim implied by TFA here is not that the VC is summoning or rendering images, but actually receiving and using a signal to suppress the visual attention from the eyes during imagination. Aphantasics suppress real vision less, so in theory they can’t see their imagination model of the world as cleanly.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#22

Post by mirror_neuron »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #10
misthop wrote: post #3

Aphantasiac here, happy to discuss or answer any questions

Does it apply to audio as well? If you think of a song you know well, do you feel like you "hear" the music in your head, as though playing back an audio file? If you think of a movie scene you've seen, what is that like? Can you recount what was in it, even if you can't "picture" it? Or does this also prevent you from recalling the details of the scene?

As someone who is close to the aphantasic end of the spectrum: for me, it does not apply to audio. That difference is how I came to understand aphantasia better: I can very concretely hear sounds and music in my "mind's ear" in a way that I can't for vision.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#23

Post by afavour »

ThrowawayTestr wrote: post #7
misthop wrote: post #3

Aphantasiac here, happy to discuss or answer any questions

What does you mother look like?

Not really how it works. I can describe an apple to you in great detail. I cannot imagine all of those things I described in a coherent image in my head. Personally sometimes I'm able to picture pieces or aspects of it for flashes but I cannot see an apple in my head.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#24

Post by suddenlybananas »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #11
suddenlybananas wrote: post #4

I still think this is fundamentally about how difficult it is to describe qualia.

It's a real phenomena. Mental imagery corresponds to voluntary activation of the visual cortex[1]. The quality of the self-reported imagery corresponds to the degree of activity in the visual cortex[2] while imagining some visual scene. People with aphantasia have little to no visual cortex activity. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4595480/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8186241/

I'm familiar with these studies but I don't think you can assume that activity in the visual cortex is phenomenal experience. I'm sure there are differences in self-reported aphantasics and people who don't claim to be aphantasics, but I don't think the existence of differences proves there is a difference in phenomenal experience.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#25

Post by orta »

misthop wrote: post #19
JoshTriplett wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it apply to audio as well? If you think of a song you know well, do you feel like you "hear" the music in your head, as though playing back an audio file? If you think of a movie scene you've seen, what is that like? Can you recount what was in it, even if you can't "picture" it? Or does this also prevent you from recalling the details of the scene?

I'm a musician, but don't "hear" music in my head. I have an extensive memory of lyrics, and can guess the next notes of a song, but I use my inner monologue to sing or hum it in my head, I don't hear it. I can recall the visuals of a movie scene similar to how I can tell you how my office is organized. It is a spatial memory of where things are and aligned with each other. I don't replay the scene in any sense of th…

To add to this as a follow aphant - I don't have a way to hear sounds unless they are in my voice. So everything from songs, to sirens are simply me speaking it via inner monologue.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#26

Post by misthop »

jareklupinski wrote: post #14
misthop wrote: post #3

Aphantasiac here, happy to discuss or answer any questions

how is your proprioception? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception e.g. if you put your hand behind your back and move it up and down randomly, then stop suddenly, can you tell if it's stopped closer to your legs than your neck? i cant think of a better test for it :( (clinicians?)

Proprioception is good. I was a fairly accomplished high school and college club athlete in sports that require body parts to move out of visual range

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#27

Post by cyclopeanutopia »

misthop wrote: post #19
JoshTriplett wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it apply to audio as well? If you think of a song you know well, do you feel like you "hear" the music in your head, as though playing back an audio file? If you think of a movie scene you've seen, what is that like? Can you recount what was in it, even if you can't "picture" it? Or does this also prevent you from recalling the details of the scene?

I'm a musician, but don't "hear" music in my head. I have an extensive memory of lyrics, and can guess the next notes of a song, but I use my inner monologue to sing or hum it in my head, I don't hear it. I can recall the visuals of a movie scene similar to how I can tell you how my office is organized. It is a spatial memory of where things are and aligned with each other. I don't replay the scene in any sense of th…

> I use my inner monologue to sing or hum it in my head, I don't hear it

Wdym? I think that the inner monologue is "hearing it", with a varying degree of vividness between people, of course.

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#28

Post by misthop »

nelox wrote: post #16
misthop wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's 5 ft tall, sharp features, curly white hair. i can remember imagery facts, but have not visual memory

What does that mean? You can recite a description you’ve read or heard, but what about looking at a photo and describing it?

After looking at a photo? I have a memory of the "facts" of the photograph. I have no image of it

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#29

Post by suddenlybananas »

ThrowawayTestr wrote: post #5
suddenlybananas wrote: post #4

I still think this is fundamentally about how difficult it is to describe qualia.

I think this is cope to avoid the realization that some people are walking around with drastically different life experiences.

Why would I be coping about anything?

Re: People who can't picture anything are rewriting the science of imagination

#30

Post by logicallee »

misthop wrote: post #3

Aphantasiac here, happy to discuss or answer any questions

Can you complete tasks like answering the question "a square shaped piece of paper is folded once diagonally so two previously opposite corners are now on top of each other. Does the distance between the other two corners change during this fold?" I think most people would answer this by just imagining it, but I'd think the way I've described it is pretty hard to follow if you can't picture it. If you can answer the question, how do you do it?
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