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LG denies TV spying claims, says tracking and snooping concerns 'not true'

tomshardware.com

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Re: LG denies TV spying claims, says tracking and snooping concerns 'not true'

#161

Post by llm_nerd »

sgc wrote: post #145
llm_nerd wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They explicitly state that the audio ACR is done through the "TV’s internal audio processor". e.g. rendered audio, not recorded audio. I mean, you could stretch the claim to have it internal include recorded audio, but that seems dubious.

Why are you giving a shady company with shady terms and shady history the benefit of the doubt?

Because when people cry wolf, and then there is no wolf, it actually harms the consumer by lowering everyone's guard. Have people not learned this yet?

Gamers Nexus discovered recently, through their "AMD blacklisting" bit (when some relatively minor mid-lifecycle refresh of a product they didn't get a demo unit, so it turned into some "we are the truthsayers!" bit), that doing the Louis Rossmann routine earns them loads of links and clicks. So they're firmly in the cry wolf territory now, and it makes me more dubious of their claims that the people they are questioning.

This whole space is filled with bullshit now. Saw another video where a big channel talks about why TVs are so cheap now, and they then explain it that it's because they sell your data. In the real world, the selling data bit, ACR, and so on, is absolutely tiny dollars business. TVs are cheap because massive factories are pumping out these almost entirely plastic products in enormous numbers, and they're extremely cheap to make, and the IP has all been long amortized out.

Re: LG denies TV spying claims, says tracking and snooping concerns 'not true'

#162

Post by BalinKing »

juiceland wrote: post #125
xethos wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Everything" would include the microphone, both in the remote and the TV. They're claiming to split off the audio, with one path going to the speakers (and there to your ears), and the other path being hashed (and from there to LG). They still claim to get your media's audio, but deny using the microphones.

If they don’t use the microphones why do they have a statement in their Terms of Service to not say sensitive things in front of your TV? It says the TV owner is "solely responsible" for obtaining all necessary consents from third parties whose voices may be recorded by the device, and must warn household members and guests that their voices may be recorded, and if someone does not agree, the TV's microphone and voic…

> If they don’t use the microphones why do they have a statement in their Terms of Service to not say sensitive things in front of your TV?

1. The introduction says that Smart TVs are not included in this ToS ("not including Smart TVs").

2. Where do the terms say anything about "sensitive" content? The closest thing I see is section 4.d, but that's just about wiretapping/privacy laws in general.

Re: LG denies TV spying claims, says tracking and snooping concerns 'not true'

#164

Post by politician »

Terr_ wrote: post #137
bryan0 wrote: post #121

> "LG TVs process voice data only when the voice button on the remote control is pressed and held, or when a wake word such as 'Hi LG' is recognized after the user has activated the Far-Field voice recognition feature." > LG went on to say that beyond the aforementioned instances, "the TVs do not collect or record ambient conversations." LG is contradicting themselves here. In order to detect a wake word then they mu…

> In order to detect a wake word then they must be collecting or recording ambient conversations. There's a risk here that we will talk-past one another while using different meanings of the same words, so let me offer a scenario: AcmeTV has an isolated component which taps microphone input, records to a 5-second ring buffer, and on "Wakey-Wakey" triggers an alert flag. Assume it works perfectly accurately. Would you…

Later, AcmeTV has a 1MB lookup table of wake words that can be updated OTA. Whenever a wake word is detected, it triggers an alert flag with the device id, word id, and timestamp, and then broadcasts it out as high-frequency sound through the speakers.

Nearby, another AcmeTV or business partner device picks up the sound and sends it to AcmeHQ.

The former device "never transmits your viewing behavior to Acme". The latter device "never records your viewing behavior".

Re: LG denies TV spying claims, says tracking and snooping concerns 'not true'

#165

Post by GreenVulpine »

ygjb wrote: post #49
seemaze wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who hasn’t owned a television in decades, why would a TV even need a microphone in the first place? How many other household devices have a microphone whose primary function is orthogonal to recording audio?

There are lots of good reasons that are used to paper over the abuse cases. Microphones in tvs are a useful accessibility feature when they enable voice commands for the user, and allow them to be used as voice assistants. They also enable tvs with a camera and microphone to be used as video calling or audio calling interfaces. Used well we get star Trek view screens, used poorly we get little brother monitoring. For…

There's no practical reason for most people. Spying is the primary function. Edge cases like accessibility or conferencing can be easily enabled with an add on USB mic. You'd need a USB webcam with mic for conferencing anyway.

Re: LG denies TV spying claims, says tracking and snooping concerns 'not true'

#166

Post by Terr_ »

politician wrote: post #164
Terr_ wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In order to detect a wake word then they must be collecting or recording ambient conversations. There's a risk here that we will talk-past one another while using different meanings of the same words, so let me offer a scenario: AcmeTV has an isolated component which taps microphone input, records to a 5-second ring buffer, and on "Wakey-Wakey" triggers an alert flag. Assume it works perfectly accurately. Would you…

Later, AcmeTV has a 1MB lookup table of wake words that can be updated OTA. Whenever a wake word is detected, it triggers an alert flag with the device id, word id, and timestamp, and then broadcasts it out as high-frequency sound through the speakers. Nearby, another AcmeTV or business partner device picks up the sound and sends it to AcmeHQ. The former device "never transmits your viewing behavior to Acme". The lat…

I endorse the cynicism, but I feel that's moving the goalposts a tad, from "good is impossible" to "good is improbable".

Or, in a heavily-paraphrased nutshell:

    Politician: "Watch-words are ALWAYS evil-mode. They have to be lying."
    Terr:       "No. Here's a watch-word which would be good-mode."
    Politician: "Well, it'll still *become* evil-mode, eventually."

Re: LG denies TV spying claims, says tracking and snooping concerns 'not true'

#167

Post by microtonal »

bryan0 wrote: post #121

> "LG TVs process voice data only when the voice button on the remote control is pressed and held, or when a wake word such as 'Hi LG' is recognized after the user has activated the Far-Field voice recognition feature." > LG went on to say that beyond the aforementioned instances, "the TVs do not collect or record ambient conversations." LG is contradicting themselves here. In order to detect a wake word then they mu…

LG is contradicting themselves here. In order to detect a wake word then they must be collecting or recording ambient conversations.

I don't know how LG TVs do it, but e.g. many smartphones use a dedicated ASIC/audio processing chip that does not really record anything, but specifically listens for the wake word and discards all other audio to save power/battery life. I think this distinction is relevant, because there is a huge privacy difference between streaming a live audio stream to the cloud to detect a wake word and a specialized audio processor that has a small buffer only for detecting the wake word, where the audio does not leave that processor.

Theoretically, you could call that few-second buffer recording, but I don't think that would be collecting/recording ambient conversations to most people, since it's ephemeral and does not leave your device.

The question, of course, is what happens in LG TVs.

Re: LG denies TV spying claims, says tracking and snooping concerns 'not true'

#168

Post by mesrik »

shrubble wrote: post #44
seemaze wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who hasn’t owned a television in decades, why would a TV even need a microphone in the first place? How many other household devices have a microphone whose primary function is orthogonal to recording audio?

Every speaker can be used as a microphone if the circuitry is added to do so.

Many common SOC's MediaTek, Realtek, and Broadcom SOC's quite often used modern audio capable devices analog pins can be software defined either input or output.

IIRC I saw already Bruce Schneider's blog some team proof of concept where they listened using laptop speakers what was spoken in that room. Audio quality wasn't perfect, but it making sense what was spoken was good enough.

Re: LG denies TV spying claims, says tracking and snooping concerns 'not true'

#169

Post by herpdyderp »

dwedge wrote: post #103
herpdyderp wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've gotten frustrated enough with my Apple TV that once my gen of hardware is no longer supported I'll replace it with a Raspberry Pi. I don't need fancy apps, just a browser for Jellyfin and (sometimes) YouTube. Any other incidental streaming service usage can also be done through a browser anyway.

I tried doing this and the video stutter on a raspberry pi made it too annoying. Probably better off using an N100

That's too bad! Which Pi version and RAM configuration did you try?

Re: LG denies TV spying claims, says tracking and snooping concerns 'not true'

#170

Post by RiverCrochet »

firefoxd wrote: post #110

"We own the glass" that's what really stood out to me. I can still disconnect my TV from wifi. But what scares me is when every device comes with their own esim and cellular radio.

You shouldn't be really scared until all devices follow the pattern of the iPhone (and maybe new flagship Android phones too, I'm not in that camp).

New iPhones are expensive, more than $1000. Yet most people who get them finance it through their cellular carrier, usually 2 year plans, so it's just $30-$50 tacked on to the monthly cellphone bill. So ... no one cares unless it's going to double their bill.

Let's say the RAMopocalypse and other AI-driven chip pressues drives everything up even more; let's say now-cheap TVs are now $2000 or $3000. No biggie. Your cellphone company can offer you an eSIM-locked TV with bundled network and services, on a 5 year plan with free lifetime service and replacement, adding just $30-$40 to your bill for 5 years. Maybe it will include something like Family Tracker Life360 Intercom as a value-add - talk to your children to/from the TV to/from any phone on your plan, anywhere, anytime. Safety, etc.

Same thing with your laptop, home IoT/security devices, etc.

If ATSC 3.0 dies and gives way to 5g Broadcast, it'll be another enabler for something like this.

That's when the real lock-in will happen.

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