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Nvidia is the central bank of AI

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Re: Nvidia is the central bank of AI

#141
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $9000 has to be paid back, and then some. I sure hope you aren't an accountant.

I learned about this concept in college macroeconomics. I asked this exact question and the TA said “yeah I guess repaying debt is like destroying money” as if they had never thought of that before. The idea of lending money increasing the money supply is definitionally true.

> the TA said “yeah I guess repaying debt is like destroying money” as if they had never thought of that before

They shouldn't have been a TA. Modern money is destroyed in three ways: through taxation, defaults and the extinguishing of debts.

Re: Nvidia is the central bank of AI

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned about this concept in college macroeconomics. I asked this exact question and the TA said “yeah I guess repaying debt is like destroying money” as if they had never thought of that before. The idea of lending money increasing the money supply is definitionally true.

And when debt is wiped out through bankruptcy that inflation remains.

> when debt is wiped out through bankruptcy that inflation remains

Bankruptcy is deflationary. The same way credit creation makes money bankruptcy (and any other reduction of debt, including through repayment) destroys it. It's why financial crises were often followed by deflation in gold-based economies.

Re: Nvidia is the central bank of AI

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would also follow that by increasing the money supply significantly they’re also contributing to inflation a great deal correct? (Given the rest of the economy is not growing at near the same rate as the AI industry)

Maybe a dumb question but how is NVIDIA increasing the total supply of money? Only the fed can actually order more money to be "created". Private companies can only work within the existing supply, that is, their reserves, no?

Every form of lending that is specified via currency increases the supply.

If I give you GPUs worth $1bn, but take 100m payments for 11 years, then during that time you can use your other mony to buy other things that arent GPUs

If we stop after the 11 years and dont make new loans, the supply has shrunk back

Re: Nvidia is the central bank of AI

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how much did the fed sign up to backstop then? Surely it’s more than physical currency The Fed doesn't backstop physical currency. That is issued by the Treasury (specifically, the Mint). The FDIC backstops bank deposits; the U.S. guarantees is obligations. The Fed doesn't properly "backstop" anything. It's the lender of last resort–if you have a Treasury or other good collateral, it will loan you money against it.…

“Federal reserve note” You are taking this too literally anyway. I know they don’t backstop jack squat but in practice there is a fed put. Have a conversation with me, don’t be a pedant. If you are saying they will lend last resort against treasuries you should know there are $40 trillion of those outstanding… How about what’s the amount from banks that the fed would willing lend as a last resort?

> “Federal reserve note”

That isn't a backstop, it's a direct obligation. It's also, like, not a real one? You can't redeem notes for specie. The term originates from when you could redeem dollars for metal. The Fed did play a role in backstopping that guarantee.

> know they don’t backstop jack squat but in practice there is a fed put

Sure. That isn't the same as a backstop. Backstops are hard–the Fed can't turn away an eligible borrower at the discount window. The Fed put is soft–the Fed will let market participants fail to send a message.

Going back to the top, it is incorrect to say the Fed backstops M2. This wouldn't be a footnote in a central-banking discussion, it would be something that would get called out as a screwup.

> How about what’s the amount from banks that the fed would willing lend as a last resort?

Infinity. The Fed mainly accepts Treasuries as collateral, but it can and has expanded the definition of good collateral in crises. There is no legal or frankly practical limit on how much money the Fed can create. Its only constraint is ultimately political. (Which is in turn mostly a function of inflation and employment and I guess now social media vibes.)

If you're looping this back to Nvidia, yes, I never claimed Nvidia has more lending capacity than the Fed. What I said was it's interesting that in practice, Nvidia appears to have created more money (if we're being pedantic, M3 which turns into M1) than the Fed has in that time. The Fed wasn't particularly trying to ease financial conditions in that time, so this is more of a curiosity tied to the title than a statement of capability.

Re: Nvidia is the central bank of AI

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I view the market as celestial objects influencing each other through a lattice similar to spacetime Everything influences each other with varying gravitational pull At one point the mental model was more like a web, but spacetime with mass matches the model more closely

Money is a lot like mass, it has it's own gravity.

and it doesn’t disappear [1], much like law of conservation

at any given time there is a finite amount of it most easily observed in currencies’ relative price to another currency, and its movement between owners causes distortions in asset prices

most people I’m around and most trading indicator developers I’ve seen don’t seem to conceptualize the flow of value around the economy. so it feels niche and maybe visualizing this mental model can help many people

[1] central banks can functionally delete money in their bond purchase and roll off programs

Re: Nvidia is the central bank of AI

#146

I've always found it interesting when corporations start acting like public institutions. When traditionally philosophical, social contract ideas apply to things like corporate governance. Or like here, where private structures get powerful and important enough to resemble government structures. The ideas we deal with when we discuss society and organization aren't exclusive to government, they relate to human nature…

Yeah its soooo interesting! Totally not dystopian, just soooo interesting and fascinating to ponder these scenarios in which corporations hold equal power to national governments! Just such a curious scenario to let your mind wander about, how society would look like in these scenarios! /s I'm honestly so sick of the suspense of disbelief on this site, how is this more "interesting" to you, than the absolute sheer te…

I'm not advocating for corporations to have equal power with governments, though. I think that's generally a terrible idea.

Looking at any organization with power and people involved, perhaps we can use the same ideas that traditionally apply to government in more places. That's all I'm saying.

This is not some mindless intellectual exercise to distract from how things are. In fact, as a proposal for how to reform corporate power, it's the opposite.

(Also, even though I think corporate power should be limited to a very specific arm of society, and that we shouldn't encourage more corporate power, you are greatly exaggerating. Feudalism and the abolition of human rights are not right around the corner.)

Re: Nvidia is the central bank of AI

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the fraction to be kept in reserve has been zero for 4-5 years.

Almost like the concept is complete bunkum. It’s been zero in the UK for hundreds of years.

that.. doesn't make it better

Re: Nvidia is the central bank of AI

#148
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“as long as it’s cash flow continues” is doing a lot of optimistic heavy lifting. The whole premise of the circular financing worry is that Nvidia sits in the middle of all the guarantees made to companies like OpenAI. If any of those companies become insolvent, Nvidia is on the hook for it. Also Nvidia isn’t really creating money. The 500B number is third party capital that already exists (BX, Apollo, etc).

Yea, but they would have to become insolvent in a way that makes compute lose value. The reason Nvidia is comfortable making these deals is because if OpenAI can’t use the compute, someone else can. Granted OpenAI going insolvent likely means a drop in the value of compute…

> if OpenAI can’t use the compute, someone else can

This is the big point IMO since I have never given $1 to OpenAI but I subscribe to Vidu and Typecast, and have given money to Kling, Hailou, and even Gemini in the form of Google Workspace.

So these other guys have products and use cases, which OpenAI has never been able to crack beyond ChatGPT. And ChatGPT was never worth paying for, IMO.

If OpenAI dies, it's not because there is no market for the technology (which is all NVIDIA cares about), it's more that OpenAI doesn't know how to run a relevant technology company.

They were given everything, not just NVIDIA's billions of dollars and credit backing but all the first-mover advantage, all the respect and credibility early on, so it's really sad to see them unable to develop interesting products and turn a profit in a space they helped pioneer, while so many others are making money with the tech all around them.

NVIDIA is fine. The technology will continue to improve and NVIDIA will stay at the center. OpenAI is fucked - knew it when they retired Sora to focus on text-to-text and coding (a largely solved problem).

Re: Nvidia is the central bank of AI

#149
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, but they would have to become insolvent in a way that makes compute lose value. The reason Nvidia is comfortable making these deals is because if OpenAI can’t use the compute, someone else can. Granted OpenAI going insolvent likely means a drop in the value of compute…

Compute has already lost value for me. Six months ago I thought you needed a 1T+ model to be useful coding. Now I am able to get by just fine with a 27b model. I see two factors converging to cause a collapse of this house of cards: 1. People are realizing that what they need isn't more general intelligence, it's more specialization. A small but well tuned coding model, a small but well tuned customer service model,…

You're not considering video which OpenAI opted out of when they retired Sora.

Generative video requires significantly more computing power and energy than generative text.

OpenAI is fucked, compute is still needed, it's just them that isn't.

Re: Nvidia is the central bank of AI

#150
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, but they would have to become insolvent in a way that makes compute lose value. The reason Nvidia is comfortable making these deals is because if OpenAI can’t use the compute, someone else can. Granted OpenAI going insolvent likely means a drop in the value of compute…

Compute has already lost value for me. Six months ago I thought you needed a 1T+ model to be useful coding. Now I am able to get by just fine with a 27b model. I see two factors converging to cause a collapse of this house of cards: 1. People are realizing that what they need isn't more general intelligence, it's more specialization. A small but well tuned coding model, a small but well tuned customer service model,…

If you reshuffle your argument, and apply the same facts you get to a similar conclusion but with a drastically different spin.

> it's more specialization

China, constrained by hardware, and talent (not to slight the Chinese, but they are limited to domestic resources - and much of the US effort is very international). They did, what the Chinese do, and optimized the process of production, and drastically lowered the cost of development of their models. Cheeper to build, cheaper to run is just good economics.

Meanwhile in the us, we have open AI doing "experiments" - it looks like the costs around the hugging face hack are going to be about the same as China would spend on building out one of their smaller efforts (several million dollars). (Depending on whos numbers you trust, the fact that I can even make this claim should make you raise an eyebrow).

Go back to the 80s' and "expert systems" - most people will tell you that for their time, they were amazing, and useful. People would have loved to have more of them but they were so cost prohibitive that we all but abandoned them for serious use. The US frontier labs seem to have forgotten this lesson and their calls to "slow down" look like an excuse to "cut the waste so we can move to making money".

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