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Fuck it, make it anyway

joelotter.com

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Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#181

Post by ThePhysicist »

DidntUseIt wrote: post #92

Problem is without LLMs I’m making a contact lead form with some basic stuff and calling it good. With them, I’m making the whole SaaS. I just made the best DM experience last night. I never would have before. Feels and looks just like iMessage, because the users are coming from that, and it’s just for a small biz. It’s been planned for a while because the messages involve so much file sharing, it was time to build a…

Yeah sure, let's go and vibe code your own e-signing solution with Claude. Sure you can do it, LLMs never say no but if someone with actual e-signing expertise would start probing the LLM about what it actually did I'm sure we would see a lof of "Actually you're right to push back", "You're right that was entirely wrong, that's on me!", "Fair point, I did not consider that"... LLMs are still a joke when it comes to implementing complex software where domain knowledge and "precision" is important, maybe some day they will be able to do that but we're not there. If they were good at precision and consistency and thinking we would see tons of high quality LLM written novels and books as well, but all we see is utter garbage that no one considers literature. In the same vein, unsupervised vibe-coded software isn't real software to me, it's garbage. You can produce high quality software with LLMs, but definitely not as an amateur without domain knowledge just prompting your way to something that resembles working software.

I find people that are the "unconscious incompetence" stage of software development absolutely love them because they produce output that looks fine to them and they can't find anything wrong with it because they simply lack the ability to perceive quality. For a contact widget that might be acceptable as it will be used a few dozen times so who cares if it breaks, but let's not pretend you can actually build a compliant e-signing or invoicing software without having domain expertise and investing a ton of editing/revision time.

Put more bluntly, a domain expert that, as of currently, refuses to use LLMs can easily start using LLMs in their work, an idiot who uses LLMs cannot easily become a domain expert. Now let's think about who you would rather hire or who do you think will have the better future career outlook. Pretty damning how many people here are willing to reject the idea that domain expertise or ability to write program code yourself is a waste of resources.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#183

Post by xorgun »

ThePhysicist wrote: post #181
DidntUseIt wrote: post #92

Problem is without LLMs I’m making a contact lead form with some basic stuff and calling it good. With them, I’m making the whole SaaS. I just made the best DM experience last night. I never would have before. Feels and looks just like iMessage, because the users are coming from that, and it’s just for a small biz. It’s been planned for a while because the messages involve so much file sharing, it was time to build a…

Yeah sure, let's go and vibe code your own e-signing solution with Claude. Sure you can do it, LLMs never say no but if someone with actual e-signing expertise would start probing the LLM about what it actually did I'm sure we would see a lof of "Actually you're right to push back", "You're right that was entirely wrong, that's on me!", "Fair point, I did not consider that"... LLMs are still a joke when it comes to i…

[dead]

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#184

Post by Tade0 »

I use LLMs at work. I'm expected to and paid to show up and do that, so I do it.

But I refuse to leave understanding the codebase to machines. I did that the other day as an exception and fortunately my reviewer picked up on things which weren't exactly broken - just redundant and inelegant - e.g. two variables which easily could have been one, passed between several methods.

We have an automatic reviewer as well and there wasn't even a peep from it regarding any of that.

And this is really the crux of the issue - LLMs won't ever create elegant and minimal code, because their style is based on the mean, which in turn is dominated by the work of people who shit out a lot of working, but write-only code.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#185

Post by wanderlust123 »

embedding-shape wrote: post #153
DidntUseIt wrote: post #92

Problem is without LLMs I’m making a contact lead form with some basic stuff and calling it good. With them, I’m making the whole SaaS. I just made the best DM experience last night. I never would have before. Feels and looks just like iMessage, because the users are coming from that, and it’s just for a small biz. It’s been planned for a while because the messages involve so much file sharing, it was time to build a…

> so without LLMs you’re now doing only beginner stuff. You won’t seem like a real dev anymore. I think it's the opposite. When I'm on the edges of Real Difficult Stuff (TM), then LLMs are less of help compared to when I just need basic web applications or similar "beginner stuff". If what you're working on doesn't exists in the training data at all, the LLMs can sometimes be more in the way than helpful, as they don…

What is this real difficult stuff you speak of that only you can do and LLMs can not?

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#186

Post by DidntUseIt »

embedding-shape wrote: post #153
DidntUseIt wrote: post #92

Problem is without LLMs I’m making a contact lead form with some basic stuff and calling it good. With them, I’m making the whole SaaS. I just made the best DM experience last night. I never would have before. Feels and looks just like iMessage, because the users are coming from that, and it’s just for a small biz. It’s been planned for a while because the messages involve so much file sharing, it was time to build a…

> so without LLMs you’re now doing only beginner stuff. You won’t seem like a real dev anymore. I think it's the opposite. When I'm on the edges of Real Difficult Stuff (TM), then LLMs are less of help compared to when I just need basic web applications or similar "beginner stuff". If what you're working on doesn't exists in the training data at all, the LLMs can sometimes be more in the way than helpful, as they don…

Think we’re saying the same thing.

I very actively work using LLMs (no “agentic” stuff) and agree with you - they are only really worth tasking out tedium to.

But a lot of - say a DM feature - is tedium. Something simple like adding reactions, adding read receipts. It’s not hard at all. The LLM easily excels at the task and yet I didn’t have to do it. There are 1000s of those tasks. Handling file uploads, filling out a W9 and emailing it to the user, cron jobs for digest emails. All very easy problems most LLMs can do. There are just countless tasks if you’re building a real SaaS and I don’t want to do them all.

The big problems LLMs can’t do are only as such because there’s no way to put it into a simple, linear instruction. Once you can though, it’s now an easy task (whether or not you use an LLM).

But yeah we’re saying the same thing - let the LLM do the 1000s of tedious tasks you normally wouldn’t be bothered to spend time on.

Build the entire SaaS (which is mostly that tedium) instead of just the MVP thing you need without any niceties. I find it opens up more opportunity, like for example, we are about to hire our first full-time employee because we’re taking on so much more business.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#187

Post by DidntUseIt »

runarberg wrote: post #133
anhyz wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people like _making_ things, and some people like making _things_.

Sound more like the latter group likes having things made for them, ideally without paying for it.

It’s more work than before LLMs (but I get way more), but you're right that I don't pay since I run local models.

@dang @tomhow If you want to practice fairness for once in your lives

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#188

Post by wanderlust123 »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #119
amelius wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who needs a SaaS when you can just ask AI to write a private one just made for you?

Removing dependency on SaaS has so far been my favorite use of AI. I hope we kill it off entirely. Software is better off as a tool. Making it a product typically ruins it.

People pay for good tools. Tools help create value, and if they are good at creating value the toolmaker should be compensated.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#189

Post by jenniferhooley »

wyantb wrote: post #172
jenniferhooley wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really true tbh. Plenty of 50 year old business guys with less than zero technical ability making saas startups over months of focused chats with LLMs. Of course they're slower at making stuff and the projects are worse than a smart engineer, but they can definitely ship and run to thousands of real customers.

"not everybody" vs "50 year old business guys...months of focused chats" - I don't think you're really disagreeing here? That's also a niche population. One that knows their domain very well, absolutely, personally I think it's cool that they can DIY what they need. But still a niche population. That's not your proverbial 20year old kid right out of school with ADHD pumping out world class software. Aside - is AI sti…

No they don't know the domain at all. I think one of the startups brings in around $10K a month now. They know nothing about the domain only that it brings in money (i.e. they run thousands of startup "tests" and this one seemed to be easiest to make money from), and even less about code (have no idea what a variable is).

I just think devs are coping by thinking that saas startups have any barrier to entry at all. You are now competing with every single person on the planet who wants to make money sitting at home on a computer, and likely the business guy with zero skill or craftsmanship is going to beat you. The only thing with barrier to entry is insanely complex software (e.g., what used to take a genius team of 10 multiple years to make) and or more creative software like video games (where you need extreme care and taste to get something anyone will look at for > 2 hours).

Average saas products require no skill or craftsmanship and literally anyone including our grandmas can make it (assuming they will take a few months at least to chat with an LLM). To be clear I think this is great! More better software, people with smaller needs can have llms build it for them totally bespoke. For those of us with skills we have to move WAY out of our old comfort zone and make way cooler things, a standard saas that takes a few months isn't something we should waste our time on anymore.

Re: Fuck it, make it anyway

#190

Post by ozgung »

amelius wrote: post #98
DidntUseIt wrote: post #92

Problem is without LLMs I’m making a contact lead form with some basic stuff and calling it good. With them, I’m making the whole SaaS. I just made the best DM experience last night. I never would have before. Feels and looks just like iMessage, because the users are coming from that, and it’s just for a small biz. It’s been planned for a while because the messages involve so much file sharing, it was time to build a…

Who needs a SaaS when you can just ask AI to write a private one just made for you?

There is a small web service I need with a price tag of $39 one time payment. I’m current doing it myself for the last 1.5 hours, because I thought it would be fun. 2 minutes ago I upgraded to $120 subscription of Codex.

Reasonable thing was to pay $39 and forget about it.

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