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Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

science.org

121–130 of 154 posts

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anything small enough doesn't really harm you What about prions, or strange matter?

You think you can't make those any smaller?

I would assume you can't generally just shrink the size of basic particles, molecular bonds or fundamental forces, but maybe you can, who knows.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#122
post #99
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is probably the worst drug of all in terms of societal destruction. We are yet to observe a society where the overwhelming majority of the population regularly uses fentanyl, crack cocaine or meth-amphetamine. I bet that if we try comparing apples to oranges alcohol would end up being relatively harmless.

Not fentanyl, but it used to be normal to get methamphetamine as a cough treatment from any pharmacy, and it worked out okay.

Heroine and cocaine too, coke was full of... coke at the beginning

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#123
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well given "therapeutic index" I had said "medication" as opposed to "commonly abused substances". I think your list skews heavily due to psychedelics tending not to be acutely toxic to the same extent as other chemical species. Statins for example are probably 10x to 20x (quick napkin math based on an animal study I found). Tylenol is 10x and is OTC. Personally I consider alcohol to be much safer than many other sub…

Two things: 1. Half of those drugs on the list do have medicinal uses. Even methamphetamine and cocaine are used medicinally (admittedly rarely). 2. Tylenol poisoning is the leading reason for poison control center calls. >80,000 U.S. Poison Control exposure cases in 2021 involving acetaminophen or an acetaminophen-containing product. https://poisoncenters.org/news-alerts/13244374

7-Up contained lithium citrate until 1950. The soda jerks were literally treating manic depression during WWII. There were advertising signs for it at crosswalks on city streets. Make 7-Up Yours, Baby!

Any product that contains ethanol but is not intended for consumption will be adulterated with ingredients that make it really unpleasant to consume. Any drug, OTC or sometimes even prescription, that has a risk of abuse, will be combined with another drug that makes it impractical or dangerous to use it recreationally, or isolate it for manufacturing.

So the next time you wonder why all your cough medicine has to come with guaifenesin, or you need a psychiatrist to prescribe your lithium carbonate, you can blame all the addicts and Walter Whites out there who ruined it for honest people.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence of that. What you say is not supporting, but rather "conveniently makes sense". I don't dispute the utility of psychedelics. But I have observed (and this is anecdotal) that the fanatic devotees of the drugs tend to engage in magical thinking around the power/history/whatever of psychedelic substances, no matter their intelligence or accomplishment, or rigorous critical thinking in other areas.

It’s a controversial theory, but it does exist[0]. As far as I know, there is no prevailing theory about where consciousness came from so speculating based on existing theories isn’t claiming it’s the truth. Is it such a leap that fungi are one of the few natural drugs that cause brain elasticity so maybe our early ancestors took it to get the evolutionary process started. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoned_ape_…

This theory relies on not defining consciousness. My dog certainly appears to be conscious, and I doubt there is any evidence of some canine use of psychedelics.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#125
post #78
post #46

It's thought that a lot of the geometric designs in Indigenous pottery and architecture are directly influenced by hallucinogenic plants like datura. There's a really great YouTube channel called Desert Lore and he covers this topic in depth in this episode. It was really fascinating: https://youtu.be/Vp4JlUEnPTs?si=j8gH0WnHRpeo1BJu

The top comment when I clicked it does not agree with the narrative: @rkozakand 10 months ago The so called "southwestern motif" is found wherever people weave. Our native rugs in the mountains of Ukraine use the exact same motif, only in different colors. It is a natural outgrowth of weaving techniques, which encourage triangles. We also have ancient pottery from what is called the Trypillian culture, which includes…

More likely it's not the same protocol that served these different cultures those motifs, it's the same server sending the same data over different protocols.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#126
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The "war on drugs" certainly didn't help, but research never really stopped. This is false. The scheduling of psychedelics such as psilocybin and LSD was catastrophic for medical research in the United States (as well as in many other countries) from the early 1970s until the mid-2000's. Even today, research on psychedelics is challenging. > but we are struggling to turn these drugs into treatments that up to moder…

That's really wrong though: it's really hard to not feel effects of fentanyl, opioids, ketamine either.

But we only use those as sedative. Or how ?

Except ketamine therapies are being done right now with low doses where the effects are lighter than psychedelics

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#127
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's really gross that coffee cups are left all over the place. But yeah, rise in caffeine consumption in place of ethanol is thought to have enabled and fueled the enlightenment, and been a major factor in the industrial revolution.

Look up how much the signatories of the constitutional convention drank the night before signing the constitution. Alcohol consumption remained massive during the 1800s by our standards, people just drank we more than we do and probably more than in the 1600s and 1700s because distilled alcohol became cheap and widespread while you only had access to beer and wine before that.

Drinking culture changed more dramatically in English-speaking countries in late 1800s/early 1900s (temperance movement) than elsewhere.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#128

> The work also benefits from recent research into the use of hallucinogens in treating mental illness, which has promoted broader acceptance of these substances. “There was long a feeling that drugs made you sick and addicted,” says José Capriles, an archaeologist at Pennsylvania State University (Penn State) who excavates in Bolivia. “Today, there is a new openness,” he adds, which is freeing grant money and attrac…

I wouldn't celebrate the end of the war on drugs just yet. Even if psychedelic medicines are approved, bifurcated scheduling means that rich white people using psychedelics in clinics would be respectable medical users, but the same exact molecule used on the street by poor brown people would still be schedule 1 and used to justify continued persecution. Tails they win, heads we lose.

Context does matter though? There are plenty of substances which are legal for certified professionals to use in controlled settings that would be illegal for untrained amateurs to use for recreational purposes. Plutonium, for example.

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And nicotine, don't forget that. Smokers built the modern world (and then developed lung cancer for their troubles).

That's what's glaringly missing. Nicotine. It's extremely mind-altering, and it's been u-bi-qui-tous in the Americas for millennia - and for centuries in Europe and the world. Makes you wonder what kind of selective pressures it exerted on the evolution of modern man. Select for chill and veg out types? For believers in cure-all panaceas (and snake oil)? For people who enjoy sucking on things? Or for something more s…

> nicotine receptors make meaningless behavior meaningful as if you expend effort on it

*nicotinic receptors, which are activated by acetylcholine. But I only saw nicotine mentioned once in the paper, and in the titles of two citations.

To me, it seems like a big stretch to say that nicotine "makes meaningless behavior meaningful" - could you explain how that's supported by the paper's data?

Re: Psychoactive substances helped spur Andean civilization

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beer may have lead to the domestication of cereal grains. This is not my theory, here's an article about it: https://nautil.us/beer-domesticated-man-234697 Specifically, we have evidence of beer older than we have evidence of cereal domestication. There is evidence that beer's side effects were considered important for social and religious gatherings (as they are today as well). People wanted to make more beer and so…

It's proposed in a Niven-Pournelle novel that grain domesticated humans: we gave it the largest premium territories, we carefully propogated the finest varieties, and we elevated it to a holy sacrament and a symbol of sacrifice, divinity, and unity. An often missed point about grains is that distilling or fermenting them into beverages made for easier transportation, storage, and resilience. Yeah, you could store gra…

> we gave it the largest premium territories

Not premium to humans.

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