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Starlink Signal Leakage Threatens Radio Astronomy's Most Critical Frequencies

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Re: Starlink Signal Leakage Threatens Radio Astronomy's Most Critical Frequencies

#41

Post by db48x »

Dracophoenix wrote: post #32
db48x wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

An endowment isn't free money and launching a telescope into space remains a costlier venture than plopping a few arrays on mountains like Mauna Kea or atop the Chilean Andes. Contrary to your imagination, radio telescopes aren't that cheap either. The Smithsonian and NASA fund most of the construction, operation, and maintenance of Harvard's telescopes rather than the university. Suffice it to say, it's unlikely an…

Sure, sure. The endowment generates revenue which is then spent on stuff. Harvard spends billions every year on stuff. A small slice of that spending over the last decade could have gotten them a huge scientific and prestige boon: the first major private telescope in space. (Cubesats don’t count.)

Government subsidies might explain it though. Why should Harvard spend their own money when they can spend mine?

Re: Starlink Signal Leakage Threatens Radio Astronomy's Most Critical Frequencies

#42

Post by db48x »

defrost wrote: post #23
db48x wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Ground constellations (eg: SKA in radio astronomy) are still vastly cheaper than orbiting arrays, also easier wrt incremental upgrade via physical visits, etc.

Upgrades are overrated. Stick your telescope in sun–synchronous orbit and leave it there. Launch a better one every year or three. After a few launches your undergrads will still be excited to use that first telescope, your PhD students will use the next several, and your faculty will all be drooling over the latest.

Upgrades don’t increase capacity.

Oh, and we’ve got universities spending billions of taxpayer money to carve up mountains in Peru to build telescopes on top. Those are not cheaper than space telescopes would be.

Re: Starlink Signal Leakage Threatens Radio Astronomy's Most Critical Frequencies

#43

Post by db48x »

defrost wrote: post #38
wbl wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fibre rolls in a dense city have different economics from somewhere with just a few people per square mile.

and yet Western Australia, 3x size of Texas with less than a million people in 1980 had a telephone network that covered the population. The "sums are different for rural V urban" doesn't make leaky tin cans a better solution over fibre to population, particularly given the downsides.

Pretty sure we achieved that level of coverage here in the US a decade or more earlier than that. A lot of those same rural customers still rely on the telephone system for Internet access. They might be able to get DSL now, but the speeds are going to be low; often just a few hundred kilobits per second.

Re: Starlink Signal Leakage Threatens Radio Astronomy's Most Critical Frequencies

#44

Post by lokar »

bcraven wrote: post #12
defrost wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had that before Starlink flooded the radio quiet zones with leakage.

Were that the case, there would have been nobody buying Starlink. As they are, I think you are wrong.

My neighborhood has both cable and fiber, both >= 1Gbps, fairly cheap

My neighbor has starlink. I assume because they are MAGA.

Re: Starlink Signal Leakage Threatens Radio Astronomy's Most Critical Frequencies

#45

Post by pclmulqdq »

db48x wrote: post #41
Dracophoenix wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An endowment isn't free money and launching a telescope into space remains a costlier venture than plopping a few arrays on mountains like Mauna Kea or atop the Chilean Andes. Contrary to your imagination, radio telescopes aren't that cheap either. The Smithsonian and NASA fund most of the construction, operation, and maintenance of Harvard's telescopes rather than the university. Suffice it to say, it's unlikely an…

Sure, sure. The endowment generates revenue which is then spent on stuff. Harvard spends billions every year on stuff. A small slice of that spending over the last decade could have gotten them a huge scientific and prestige boon: the first major private telescope in space. (Cubesats don’t count.) Government subsidies might explain it though. Why should Harvard spend their own money when they can spend mine?

Cubesats can’t take very good pictures. You need a big mirror to get really clear imagery and you can’t cram one of those in a cubesat. Space telescopes are by nature massive, heavy satellites unless they aren’t intended to look very far or see very much. The other option is to cheaply build something absolutely massive on Earth.

Re: Starlink Signal Leakage Threatens Radio Astronomy's Most Critical Frequencies

#46

Post by db48x »

defrost wrote: post #39
gordonhart wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~80% of Starlink customers are not in the US.

That'd be a point to make to the GP db48x

No, I mean globally most of their customers are rural. Starlink is limited primarily by customer density rather than by absolute numbers. They can provide service to just so many people per square mile before the speed drops below the customer’s tolerance. Most of the square miles in the world are rural, therefore most of the customers are as well.

Plus cities have Starlink’s best competition. Starlink is amazing but FTTH is even better. If you can get FTTH at all then you probably won’t even consider Starlink. Nor should you.

Re: Starlink Signal Leakage Threatens Radio Astronomy's Most Critical Frequencies

#47

Post by defrost »

db48x wrote: post #42
defrost wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ground constellations (eg: SKA in radio astronomy) are still vastly cheaper than orbiting arrays, also easier wrt incremental upgrade via physical visits, etc.

Upgrades are overrated. Stick your telescope in sun–synchronous orbit and leave it there. Launch a better one every year or three. After a few launches your undergrads will still be excited to use that first telescope, your PhD students will use the next several, and your faculty will all be drooling over the latest. Upgrades don’t increase capacity. Oh, and we’ve got universities spending billions of taxpayer money…

Again: Radio astronomy.

> universities spending billions of taxpayer money to carve up mountains in Peru to build telescopes on top

Which university and telescope are you talking about?

> Those are not cheaper than space telescopes would be.

In general, they are - take a ground based telescopes costs, now harden it for space (extra cost), now "do the right stuff" to ensure it will work in isolation (more cost), and now package it it and launch it (more cost again).

Re: Starlink Signal Leakage Threatens Radio Astronomy's Most Critical Frequencies

#48

Post by defrost »

db48x wrote: post #43
defrost wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and yet Western Australia, 3x size of Texas with less than a million people in 1980 had a telephone network that covered the population. The "sums are different for rural V urban" doesn't make leaky tin cans a better solution over fibre to population, particularly given the downsides.

Pretty sure we achieved that level of coverage here in the US a decade or more earlier than that. A lot of those same rural customers still rely on the telephone system for Internet access. They might be able to get DSL now, but the speeds are going to be low; often just a few hundred kilobits per second.

So pull modern fibre; as should be done.

Re: Starlink Signal Leakage Threatens Radio Astronomy's Most Critical Frequencies

#49

Post by ffsm8 »

dylan604 wrote: post #35
stackghost wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also in darkness for 2 weeks. Terrestrial radio telescopes experience sunlight too. That would seem to be a solved problem.

and the moon is over 200°F in that sunlight.

There is no atmosphere to speak of, so only if directly exposed. Hence that's a solvable issue.

The whole thing is incredibly expensive though, while it may be doable with current technology, the amount of money they'd have to set aside may be a hard sell for the miniscule potential of this research - at least from the lens of 2026... So the original position of the article makes sense, it may become functionally impossible, even if technically possible

Re: Starlink Signal Leakage Threatens Radio Astronomy's Most Critical Frequencies

#50

Post by testing22321 »

defrost wrote: post #8
RockRobotRock wrote: post #6

maybe Internet for people on earth matters more than astronomy

We had that before Starlink flooded the radio quiet zones with leakage.

You mean privileged people in developed countries had it. Billions of people did not.

I’ve seen the first hand impact of starlink in communities that before had dialup as the fastest option from Australia to Tunisia to remote arctic Canada.

Medical stuff, school, talking to loved ones.

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